Category: local
04/18/06 10:33 - ID#24628
The Casino
Ugh. 6 martinis at Cecilia's last night did me in fairly harshly. Sorry (e:nejifer) (e:decoyisryan) and (e:ladycroft) - I hope I wasn't too much of a pain in SPoT last night! I was wobbly... and even now my body feels like its aching for hydration. You guys have been catching me on bad days - Timika will attest that I'm actually a very nice guy and I don't drink or go out all that often.
I'm glad to see some dialogue about the casino - (e:dcoffee) makes some points that I agree with, and it seems like I'm united with most people out there that think that this thing is a bad idea.
If you oppose the casino, or support the idea... why? I'm kind of curious about it.
For me, I see the casino this way - its good for the Senecas (tax free land in the city of Buffalo?) and for the developers but its horrible for the populace. Casinos are never investments in the traditional sense. This isn't something that is going to benefit our city in any meaningful way because a casino isn't like a mall. People go to casinos not to buy things but to risk things, and in most cases the money stays directly in the pockets of the people who build and run the casinos. Local dollars will not get recycled back into our economy... traditionally casinos are black holes for dollars. Usually this is tourist dollars, and this is what the supporters of the casino are arguing for and banking on.
My sentiment is this - WHAT tourists?!? People don't come to Buffalo to see Buffalo - people come to Buffalo to see Niagara Falls. Theres no guarantee that building a casino is going to bring in tourists when you already have two casinos 20 minutes away. We are arguing about building an attraction for the sake of tourism that has already been built twice over in other areas. In our case they would be local dollars being sucked in by the vortex, and I have a serious problem with that because our area cannot afford to waste the money. You might say, "Josh, I think that if people want to waste their money at a casino, so be it... if they don't want to waste their money than they shouldn't gamble." I tend to agree. However, if people don't want to waste their money gambling, then why bother to build the casino in the first place? Take a look at Niagara Falls. Do you see a city that is rejuvenated by the casino? That place is a ghost town... even more so than when the casino was simply the convention center. Here's a thought - if we want to attract tourists and compete against Niagara Falls, or possibly lure them away from NF to dump a few tourist bucks here, why not build something DIFFERENT than what you'll find in NF and that has a more tangible and realistic revenue scheme?
I completely object to what Mike Niman (my favorite non-journalist) said recently in the Artvoice. He and I agree that building this casino is a bad idea, but for different reasons. Mike Niman suggests that this casino would affect the poor the most because they can least afford to gamble. This is absolute baloney. When do you ever see poor people in ANY casinos? That suggestion is an absolutely hollow argument because there is no factual basis to be able to make that assumption on. Poor people as a segment of the population do not gamble that much, and if you don't believe me you can go ahead and spent a week in Niagara Falls to study the clientele.
What Mike Niman is really saying is this - "Poor people, we are trying to protect you from yourselves, because I, Mike Niman, believe that you are too stupid and irresponsible to be able to handle yourselves if a casino is built." This is a perfect example of the nanny state. I believe in personal liberty first and foremost. If you want to go bankrupt in a casino as far as I'm concerned that is your right as an American. Suggesting to hold off on building a casino because you think that the people can't handle the responsibility is absolutely ludicrous. It might be true, but we simply cannot begin restricting what we build or do because a select group of people think they are smarter than the poor people - "daddy knows best!"
I'm glad to see some dialogue about the casino - (e:dcoffee) makes some points that I agree with, and it seems like I'm united with most people out there that think that this thing is a bad idea.
If you oppose the casino, or support the idea... why? I'm kind of curious about it.
For me, I see the casino this way - its good for the Senecas (tax free land in the city of Buffalo?) and for the developers but its horrible for the populace. Casinos are never investments in the traditional sense. This isn't something that is going to benefit our city in any meaningful way because a casino isn't like a mall. People go to casinos not to buy things but to risk things, and in most cases the money stays directly in the pockets of the people who build and run the casinos. Local dollars will not get recycled back into our economy... traditionally casinos are black holes for dollars. Usually this is tourist dollars, and this is what the supporters of the casino are arguing for and banking on.
My sentiment is this - WHAT tourists?!? People don't come to Buffalo to see Buffalo - people come to Buffalo to see Niagara Falls. Theres no guarantee that building a casino is going to bring in tourists when you already have two casinos 20 minutes away. We are arguing about building an attraction for the sake of tourism that has already been built twice over in other areas. In our case they would be local dollars being sucked in by the vortex, and I have a serious problem with that because our area cannot afford to waste the money. You might say, "Josh, I think that if people want to waste their money at a casino, so be it... if they don't want to waste their money than they shouldn't gamble." I tend to agree. However, if people don't want to waste their money gambling, then why bother to build the casino in the first place? Take a look at Niagara Falls. Do you see a city that is rejuvenated by the casino? That place is a ghost town... even more so than when the casino was simply the convention center. Here's a thought - if we want to attract tourists and compete against Niagara Falls, or possibly lure them away from NF to dump a few tourist bucks here, why not build something DIFFERENT than what you'll find in NF and that has a more tangible and realistic revenue scheme?
I completely object to what Mike Niman (my favorite non-journalist) said recently in the Artvoice. He and I agree that building this casino is a bad idea, but for different reasons. Mike Niman suggests that this casino would affect the poor the most because they can least afford to gamble. This is absolute baloney. When do you ever see poor people in ANY casinos? That suggestion is an absolutely hollow argument because there is no factual basis to be able to make that assumption on. Poor people as a segment of the population do not gamble that much, and if you don't believe me you can go ahead and spent a week in Niagara Falls to study the clientele.
What Mike Niman is really saying is this - "Poor people, we are trying to protect you from yourselves, because I, Mike Niman, believe that you are too stupid and irresponsible to be able to handle yourselves if a casino is built." This is a perfect example of the nanny state. I believe in personal liberty first and foremost. If you want to go bankrupt in a casino as far as I'm concerned that is your right as an American. Suggesting to hold off on building a casino because you think that the people can't handle the responsibility is absolutely ludicrous. It might be true, but we simply cannot begin restricting what we build or do because a select group of people think they are smarter than the poor people - "daddy knows best!"
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I suppose that I wasn't clear with my comment about poor people gambling so I'll take the chance to be more clear. I'm not saying that poor people don't gamble, or that poor people seldom gamble. I'm saying that poor people (I don't consider middle income earners poor) aren't dominating the casino clientele and flooding the place, which in part is what Mike Niman is talking about when he is suggesting that poor people would be most vulnerable. Poor people that gamble ARE NOT victims.
I actually didn't know that people could use their BLUE NYS cards to gamble. This to me is absolutely outrageous and should be prevented.
Personally I don't judge gamblers by their clothes - people go buy Ferraris while wearing t-shirts and blue jeans. Still though, working in a casino would be a great opportunity to do a sociology experiment.
Elmwood Village is the neighborhood it is because of incalculable little things. Plopping a casino downtown will not do that for that area. Interesting that Giambra has flipped because his first idea was actually userful. He came out and said the second casino should go in the Falls as well. That actually made sense to me. That could actually grab ahold of tourists dollars as well as make an attempt to compete with the goings on across the border.
Gamblers are not typical people. If a guy goes on a run on a blackjack table and is up 3,000 he is not going to go to the Galleria and drop a grand in Hugo Boss, he's going to come back the next day or week and play again and most likely give it all back and then some. I have seen a guy at a $500 minimun tables with holes in his shoes and ripped clothes, in comparison people @ the city missin look better than him. Was he thinking of going out to dinner @ the chop house after his big score? He's just thinking about the next hand.
>>>>>When do you ever see poor people in ANY casinos? That suggestion is an absolutely hollow argument because there is no factual basis to be able to make that assumption on. Poor people as a segment of the population do not gamble that much, and if you don't believe me you can go ahead and spent a week in Niagara Falls to study the clientele.<<<<
In response to that just spend a day at the Penny Slots. When I worked on the floor we have people come up to the cash machines and take money off their BLUE NYS Benefit cards to play the slots. They would ask us to give them an advance on the next half of the month's payment, NO SHIT. Poor people do gamble more than they ever should.
Casino's are not built on the high rollers that you see on the travel channel, but the middle to income class. Just to go Atlantic City or Vegas, the profit center is built on slot machines are there are always more of those than any glamorous poker or table game.
The way I see it the expansion of casino's are to keep the nanny state financed. The nanny state wants you to blow your financial brains out at their place. They will collect everything you own eventually than any income or property tax they could level. This is especially true since those impoverished "Poor People" do not pay any income tax in the first place. You have to be making money and producing to pay taxes. Remember when we first got our first Casinos in Canada it was the SOCIALIST government at the time in Ontario that give us Casino Windsor and Niagara.
We will never have the Libertarian Nevada way of gambling in which the profits form the hicks that fly in and dump everything pay for the cost of government. Our version is just to take the profits and pay off the interest on government bonds and make pension payments to retired government workers. It's a suck everything dry mentality.
Casino's would be great if it meant no state income tax and a real economic boom. That is the fantasy that they sold us. Just now we live in as my one friend and I coined from the movie "Back to the Future 2" -The Biff Future-
I'd be interested if anybody comes up with a link. I'm sure there has been something in the Snooze about it somewhere along the line.
As far as the projects being near the casino is concerned Terry, and I have to admit that I don't remember seeing large projects near the casino when I went by it two weeks ago - I think that has more to do with land value around the casino more than anything else. That land out there hasn't been worth shit for a long time. It is interesting to think about though.
I am with you on personal liberty. I hear/read arguments (too many ad hominem) regarding the effects of casinos on peoples lives-moneys risks-good/bad etc etc-- It is their personal choice.
The effect of the casino in Niagara Falls hasn't rejuventated the area, but it now has a pulse, a weak one, but its there. Haven't determined if this is a short term effect that will eventually stagnate (such as people have been staying in the casino/hotel for all of their eating, drinking needs-not venturing outto use money elsewhere) or if in long term will have a positive impact (uhhh..).. I just need to keep watching,asking questions and eating/drinking at new places that have been popping up. I am skeptical.. I wont start on my wrath towards NF politics.
But thats the difference, Buffalo has a heartbeat--Sure, local people will go to the casino, and local money will be spent in the casino at the price that is is taken out of where it was being spent-- local business. From here, my thoughts revolve around that--the majority is a similar sentiment.
Out of curiousity, perhaps I'll dig for the posititives-- are there any educated links in support of?