mobileCategory: elections
11/07/06 09:07 - ID#21757
To Josh, Faith Based Voting
This is for (e:joshua)#207 and anyone else who believes we don't need to verify that votes have been correctly counted in America.
Do you doubt that politicians cheat in elections? You think nobody in America has ever intentionally cheated voters? Rigged voting counts, under-supplied voting machines in districts not favorable to them, jammed phone lines of the opposition party, called voters on the other side with misleading information to frustrate them and prevent them from voting?
Sorry to burst your bubble but all of these things happened in 2004, and in past elections. In 2004 some people went to jail for it. And guess what, most of the time the cheating was on the Republican side. I'm not saying nobody else has ever cheated, but the Republicans insult my intelligence on a daily basis, and I don't trust that they will respect me or my vote. Nor would I demand any fewer protections from Democratic or any type of cheating.
And I certainly don't trust paperless electronic voting machines. As far as I'm concerned that's like "faith based voting". No government Ever deserves that leisure. Honest, verifiable, and open elections, that's the basis of democracy. That's the principle of America, the idea of checks and balances, and the idea of a government ruled by the people. If the Executive or Legislative branch cheats, the judicial branch is there to enforce the rules, and make sure the interests of the people prevail. What better example than making sure votes are counted. This is an imposable task if the only record of the vote is a number on a computer screen, we all know how easy that is to manipulate.
Foul play happens, and we need to safeguard against it right away, or else we will be throwing away the dream of America, and pissing on the graves of our founding fathers and all the men and women who have died to preserve our noble democratic system.
I you don't want the election to drag on for days, get rid of Faith based Voting, and have stricter penalties for misleading or lying advertisements, voter intimidation, fake phone calls, and voter help line jamming.
And by the way, if the exit polls don't match the vote count, trust the exit polls, the vote count is wrong. Don't bullshit me, I'm a Political Science major, and half of that field is statistics. Exit polls are the one true check against corrupt vote counts, even in this country. We scrutinize power to make sure it is not abused, that's America. Don't stop now, or we'll lose everything.
Do you doubt that politicians cheat in elections? You think nobody in America has ever intentionally cheated voters? Rigged voting counts, under-supplied voting machines in districts not favorable to them, jammed phone lines of the opposition party, called voters on the other side with misleading information to frustrate them and prevent them from voting?
Sorry to burst your bubble but all of these things happened in 2004, and in past elections. In 2004 some people went to jail for it. And guess what, most of the time the cheating was on the Republican side. I'm not saying nobody else has ever cheated, but the Republicans insult my intelligence on a daily basis, and I don't trust that they will respect me or my vote. Nor would I demand any fewer protections from Democratic or any type of cheating.
And I certainly don't trust paperless electronic voting machines. As far as I'm concerned that's like "faith based voting". No government Ever deserves that leisure. Honest, verifiable, and open elections, that's the basis of democracy. That's the principle of America, the idea of checks and balances, and the idea of a government ruled by the people. If the Executive or Legislative branch cheats, the judicial branch is there to enforce the rules, and make sure the interests of the people prevail. What better example than making sure votes are counted. This is an imposable task if the only record of the vote is a number on a computer screen, we all know how easy that is to manipulate.
Foul play happens, and we need to safeguard against it right away, or else we will be throwing away the dream of America, and pissing on the graves of our founding fathers and all the men and women who have died to preserve our noble democratic system.
I you don't want the election to drag on for days, get rid of Faith based Voting, and have stricter penalties for misleading or lying advertisements, voter intimidation, fake phone calls, and voter help line jamming.
And by the way, if the exit polls don't match the vote count, trust the exit polls, the vote count is wrong. Don't bullshit me, I'm a Political Science major, and half of that field is statistics. Exit polls are the one true check against corrupt vote counts, even in this country. We scrutinize power to make sure it is not abused, that's America. Don't stop now, or we'll lose everything.
Permalink: To_Josh_Faith_Based_Voting.html
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You say "when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating". I think what you wanted to say was "when the Republicans are cheating, they aren't complaining about cheating".
Read about the New Hampshire phone jamming scandal which resulted in convictions: :::link:::
Why did the RNC spend over $2.5Million defending their operative in this case?
Why was the NRCC harassing Democratic voters with robocalls :::link::: ?
I'm not saying Democrats are saints; but compared to the Republicans, they don't have to be. ;-)
PS: Watch this :::link:::
On the contrary, Ken Blackwell fucked the democrats in 2004 on purpose, and that type of partisan electioneering should not be permitted by any party or any citizen.
There were lots of problems with electronic voting machines on election day and before, on both sides, and everyone complained. And the fact is that some ballots in florida that were intended to be straight democrat registered as straight republican, that is a legitimate reason for concern, and those who are concerned about it do not disserve to be labeled as loony conspirists. All of this makes it imperative that machines have some way of verifying the vote.
It is also a legitimate concern that when republicans enacted HAVA they didn't care if the companies who owned the machines were the only ones who could see the votes after the election, that borders on atrocity.
My comment on exit polls was this. When they don't match the vote count Americans tend to discard the exit polls without much second thought. Don't do that. Statistics are by nature imperfect, but exit polls are one of the most reliable. if there is a 3-5% difference that election disserves a second look. We need safeguards on our voting, for the sake of all americans, not just democrats.
In general Democrats have been crying foul about elections ever since GWB won in 2000. While I don't doubt that some shady business goes on in elections, lets not pretend for a second that somehow this is a Republican only problem. The fact of the matter is that when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating; when they are losing, cheating must be the only possible method by which they lost. Its a cynical and unrealistic viewpoint, and in every single election since, Democrats have attempted to discredit America's democratic voting process. While I'm certain that some dirty biz was going down, its equally true that Democrats have been crying wolf about just as many contested votes. I'm sorry, but having to wait in a long line to vote does not constitute an impropriety.
By the way, JFK lost to Nixon in 1960 with 300,000 votes being the deciding factor. Historically Republicans have done far less complaining than Democrats have about losing elections - should Nixon have challenged the vote in 1960, or is it that because JFK won there couldn't have possibly been any um.. "indiscretions?"
I tend to agree that I do not trust paperless balloting - however, guess who was complaining yesterday when in some states the machines weren't working so they had to resort to paper balloting? I'll give you one guess.
About your statement about exit polls - this is the holy grail of Poly Sci. Not to burst YOUR bubble, but its about as accurate as predicting the weather. 2004 proved beyond argument that exit polls are not to be trusted - nobody outside of a PS department (or liberal kook land!) believes they are credible, which is why most networks declined relying solely on them when making calls last night. Trust the exit polls but don't trust the actual votes? That is absolutely inane.
As you say, "preserving our noble democratic system" is important. What I absolutely reject is the idea that somehow this means that Republicans are to blame for the absolute joke that our electoral process appears to be at times. Democrats are just as guilty and that is an absolute.
By the way, since you did mention that you believe that Republicans don't respect you or your vote (I should remind you that voting does not equal getting your way) - the sole reason why Democrats won the House yesterday was because a series of moderate and even conservative Democrats swept several elections in the midwest. When Speaker Pelosi starts towing the extreme far left line in the House, I have to ask - those moderate and conservative Democrat votes that sent their elected officials to office - are those people and their votes going to be disrespected?
If there's one thing I know about you from your writing, it's that you are absolutely sincere in what you say. The problem I see is that you're basically the only one! Sketchy, criminal behavior is absolutely acceptable to most politicos when it benefits their political faction. When Democrats win elections by the skin of their teeth they do not flail their arms and yell about these things, nor are they demanding recounts for the sake of a valid vote. When a Democrat candidate in San Diego urges illegals to vote, and tells them how they can get away with it, people are utterly silent, and why? Anyone who is sincere, and who wants an honest vote would never give this person a chance. I don't like it any more than you do, but sketchy, illegal tactics will continue to be used by the political class until WE decide it's over, but I'm not holding my breath.
You have an iPod, right? I found some cool podcasts - Instapundit and Left, Right, and Center. Listening this week has opened my eyes to what exit polls really are, and I don't think you should trust them like you do based on what I've heard. They are NOT the same as a real vote count. At best, they are a snapshot based upon a very small sampling. They are also on occasion released before all polls are closed, and why do you think this is? In some countries this is a criminal offense! It is only one tool that we have, and it's far from perfect. I think our energy is best spent on perfecting methods of tabulating votes based on both paper and technology.