So I was thinking about Veterans Day and how weird the idea behind it is. It's so tightly wound with the cultural worship that seems to go along with the US military. Besides the veterans of World War I and II, what is being celebrated? The day originally marked the armistice of World War I, but it seems to be so far from celebrating peace today.
Why is someone who spent 18 months slogging around a base, or drone bombing random Pakistanis considered a hero, to be protecting our freedoms, to be serving our country? Who in this country are they actually serving, and what are they actually protecting us from? When people use that kind of language they expect that it makes the military exempt from any sort of criticism, disconnected from what they actually do. I don't see what invading Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Libya, or Somalia did to protect or serve the US. I don't see why we should be proud that $682 billion will be spent this year on an army when our Congress claims we can't afford food stamps, basic research or healthcare. Obligatory cost of war link
I know the military is an employer of last resort for many, making it difficult to blame the soldiers on the ground. But they still choose to take part in a unit that instigates rather than defends. This isn't to say there is no good in the military, or those in it haven't done good where they're deployed - I just don't think signing up for a fighting force is a job worthy of the language and reverence that it currently gets. There are so many people in this country struggling to make it a better place through service and self-sacrifice - we could be celebrating them in the name of peace instead.
Maybe I am jealous of everyone who got off of work.
Joe's Journal
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11/12/2013 09:16 #58290
Veterans DayCategory: holiday
11/12/2013 05:39 #58289
Walk and ChalkCategory: estrip
On Sunday, (e:paul) and I took a break from our computing and (e:terry) his anime to go out for a walk on a really nice day. We ended up stopping at Hu's for some chalk so we could advertise estrip on the busiest corners.
I think it'd be awesome if more people joined and this place was bumping.
We stopped at the coop for some groceries. I forgot to take pictures, but they were selling organic cucumbers for $3.29 each! That seems insane! I thought of you (e:tinypliny).
We also grabbed some soup from Globe before heading home. The pumpkin curry with coconut flakes was amazing, I love their soup. they also had these desserts that looked amazing - can't remember what they're called.
At home Terry put on the movie Christopher and his Kind, about a gay writer Christopher Isherwood living in Berlin in the 1930's. Paul looked into his life more and apparently he was super famous - he collaborated with Truman Capote.
I had never been up these apartment stairs on North Street before. It was like a little street with a drawbridge at the end.
Rainbow, so schwul!
They knocked down a house on Elmwood recently, north of Bidwell - was this on fire? I can't remember.
Presbyterian Church construction - concrete formwork that looks like a moat. Someone lost their baby in it
Delicious things and figures made from sugar at Globe - surprised I was able to resist
I think it'd be awesome if more people joined and this place was bumping.
We stopped at the coop for some groceries. I forgot to take pictures, but they were selling organic cucumbers for $3.29 each! That seems insane! I thought of you (e:tinypliny).
We also grabbed some soup from Globe before heading home. The pumpkin curry with coconut flakes was amazing, I love their soup. they also had these desserts that looked amazing - can't remember what they're called.
At home Terry put on the movie Christopher and his Kind, about a gay writer Christopher Isherwood living in Berlin in the 1930's. Paul looked into his life more and apparently he was super famous - he collaborated with Truman Capote.
I had never been up these apartment stairs on North Street before. It was like a little street with a drawbridge at the end.
Rainbow, so schwul!
They knocked down a house on Elmwood recently, north of Bidwell - was this on fire? I can't remember.
Presbyterian Church construction - concrete formwork that looks like a moat. Someone lost their baby in it
Delicious things and figures made from sugar at Globe - surprised I was able to resist
tinypliny - 11/12/13 11:29
Oh man. It would have been so cool had the rainbow been over the mayfair lane pic! missed chances!
Oh man. It would have been so cool had the rainbow been over the mayfair lane pic! missed chances!
tinypliny - 11/12/13 11:28
I see.. perambulators in ditches.
I see.. perambulators in ditches.
tinypliny - 11/12/13 11:28
The timestamps are awry for me. (e:Paul) - are you seeing what I am seeing??
The timestamps are awry for me. (e:Paul) - are you seeing what I am seeing??
tinypliny - 11/12/13 11:26
hahah @ coop cucumbers. Looks like I managed to enter your grocery subconsciousness. As a former grocery maniac on the site: :::link::: this is somewhat amusing. :)
Mmmmmmmm Pumpkins with coconut!!!!
Wow @ the Mayfair lane pic. I never went up there in all the 5 years I was in Buffalo. There used to be this ominous no-trespassing sign there and I always felt it was directed squarely at me.
hahah @ coop cucumbers. Looks like I managed to enter your grocery subconsciousness. As a former grocery maniac on the site: :::link::: this is somewhat amusing. :)
Mmmmmmmm Pumpkins with coconut!!!!
Wow @ the Mayfair lane pic. I never went up there in all the 5 years I was in Buffalo. There used to be this ominous no-trespassing sign there and I always felt it was directed squarely at me.
ExBuffalonian - 11/12/13 08:38
That fist picture is Mayfair Lane. It was designed by celebrated architect, E.B. Green, who actually lived there for a time. At the time it was built, the condominium plan with lower level parking was a new idea, so the place has a historic factor that's kind of cool, imo.
That fist picture is Mayfair Lane. It was designed by celebrated architect, E.B. Green, who actually lived there for a time. At the time it was built, the condominium plan with lower level parking was a new idea, so the place has a historic factor that's kind of cool, imo.
11/10/2013 13:35 #58279
Infected MushroomCategory: dancing
On Friday, (e:paul), (e:terry), (e:YesThatCasey) and Tanya and I crammed in Tanya's truck to see Infected Mushroom at the Town Ballroom. We were expecting an EDM show but it was more like an electronic jam band, who apparently are Israeli. It was still a crazy fun show even though we came late.
Paul said the music and crowd reminded him of Germany. Between electronic music coming back, people riding bikes and moving back to cities, are we becoming more European?
Afterwards we had a failure at going out, which is okay because I passed out as soon as we got home anyway.
In bed (in Tanya's truck)
Someone's mom came with them and supervised from above the whole show
Paul said the music and crowd reminded him of Germany. Between electronic music coming back, people riding bikes and moving back to cities, are we becoming more European?
Afterwards we had a failure at going out, which is okay because I passed out as soon as we got home anyway.
In bed (in Tanya's truck)
Someone's mom came with them and supervised from above the whole show
11/09/2013 07:06 #58270
bike accidentCategory: bikes
So yesterday I got into an accident on my bike. I was in hurry to get to work and riding on the sidewalk on Route 5, which I know is dangerous. I usually take a lane for the most of it but I hadn't been able to across the street yet. I started to approach a driveway where a car was waiting to turn borth . I made eye contact with the driver, he waved and I kept going.
when I started to pass him, I saw him slowly rolling forward, right into my wheel. I freaked out, rolled onto his hood and got off my bike.
The driver was panicking like crazy, he was so worried that he hurt me. Normally I would have been pissed (I always have dreamed of administering some u-lock justice) but I think was I was in just as much shock. My bike seemed okay and I wasn't hurt at all. Somehow I managed to dent his hood and bent his license plate off. He got out and just kept apologizing but the only thing I could about after that was getting to work, so I rode off.
Later, Bert's Bikes said my bike looked fine. Still, it was so stupid for me to not get his information, or yell at him for waving me on. An accident could have been so much worse if he pushed me into the road. I guess it shows why taking the lane is important. The only thing that I damaged was my ego. I like to think I'm a good cyclist but that was so ameuter and avoidable.
On the plus side, I rode every day this week, with my best time to work ever, averaging 19.4 mph!
when I started to pass him, I saw him slowly rolling forward, right into my wheel. I freaked out, rolled onto his hood and got off my bike.
The driver was panicking like crazy, he was so worried that he hurt me. Normally I would have been pissed (I always have dreamed of administering some u-lock justice) but I think was I was in just as much shock. My bike seemed okay and I wasn't hurt at all. Somehow I managed to dent his hood and bent his license plate off. He got out and just kept apologizing but the only thing I could about after that was getting to work, so I rode off.
Later, Bert's Bikes said my bike looked fine. Still, it was so stupid for me to not get his information, or yell at him for waving me on. An accident could have been so much worse if he pushed me into the road. I guess it shows why taking the lane is important. The only thing that I damaged was my ego. I like to think I'm a good cyclist but that was so ameuter and avoidable.
On the plus side, I rode every day this week, with my best time to work ever, averaging 19.4 mph!
lilho - 11/10/13 04:46
No wonder you have such a hot bod.... It's from all the biking. Be careful out there!
No wonder you have such a hot bod.... It's from all the biking. Be careful out there!
libertad - 11/09/13 10:28
Sorry to hear you got hit but glad you and your bike are ok. I know that riding on the sidewalk is dangerous but I tend to think it is much safer than taking a lane on Route 5. I feel the same way about Delaware where there is no bike lane. Just don't trust people to not hit me because they didn't see me or thought there was more room than there really is.
Sorry to hear you got hit but glad you and your bike are ok. I know that riding on the sidewalk is dangerous but I tend to think it is much safer than taking a lane on Route 5. I feel the same way about Delaware where there is no bike lane. Just don't trust people to not hit me because they didn't see me or thought there was more room than there really is.
tinypliny - 11/09/13 07:25
I am so glad you are okay. The rest does not matter!
I am so glad you are okay. The rest does not matter!
11/07/2013 12:39 #58262
Organic vs CheapCategory: food
Last night I got in a debate with (e:Paul) over buying organic/local/fair-trade food. (e:Terry) had sent us a link ranking Tops as one of the worst grocers in the country, and I said at least they're semi-cheap. Paul wanted to know why I value price over quality when it comes to food.
I definitely see the value in buying organic, local, and/or fair trade food when possible. I am well aware of the impact pesticides have on the environment and how unsustainable most of our food supply is without tons of petrochemicals. I've heard about the potential health risks of residual pesticides. But I've never been able to get myself to spend for organic.
I've been shopping at Aldi for close to 5 years now. Of all the discount stores, I think they're the cleanest and best run (that ruthless German efficiency!). I don't know where they source any of their mostly non-organic produce and food, but I know that their workers are paid at least $12/hr and managers $20, plus benefits. I could always get by shopping on a $30/week grocery budget, where Giant Eagle in Cleveland would have cost me closer to $60. Same thing for Wegmans and the coop costing much more. I would love to get my food from there but I sink my budget into my loans.
Is it selfish of me to be cheap and buy crazy unknown Aldi food when now I can technically afford more? I definitely have noticed a quality difference between what I've been buying vs what Paul and Terry get at the coop and Wegmans. I said it's worse to be feeding the student loan monster with interest over industrial ag, but that's me justifying it after the fact.
Maybe I can become a couponer like (e:mike) or my mom and shop at Wegmans. Or skip the local aspect and keeping going for cheap organic way out at Trader Joe's. Either way it's good to be challenged.
I definitely see the value in buying organic, local, and/or fair trade food when possible. I am well aware of the impact pesticides have on the environment and how unsustainable most of our food supply is without tons of petrochemicals. I've heard about the potential health risks of residual pesticides. But I've never been able to get myself to spend for organic.
I've been shopping at Aldi for close to 5 years now. Of all the discount stores, I think they're the cleanest and best run (that ruthless German efficiency!). I don't know where they source any of their mostly non-organic produce and food, but I know that their workers are paid at least $12/hr and managers $20, plus benefits. I could always get by shopping on a $30/week grocery budget, where Giant Eagle in Cleveland would have cost me closer to $60. Same thing for Wegmans and the coop costing much more. I would love to get my food from there but I sink my budget into my loans.
Is it selfish of me to be cheap and buy crazy unknown Aldi food when now I can technically afford more? I definitely have noticed a quality difference between what I've been buying vs what Paul and Terry get at the coop and Wegmans. I said it's worse to be feeding the student loan monster with interest over industrial ag, but that's me justifying it after the fact.
Maybe I can become a couponer like (e:mike) or my mom and shop at Wegmans. Or skip the local aspect and keeping going for cheap organic way out at Trader Joe's. Either way it's good to be challenged.
metalpeter - 11/09/13 15:47
Lots of really great points.... Where I agree is that Organic is a trend and that is ok and just that label means it can and does sell for more.... Another example of this is Gluten Free.... I'll admit I just know it is the stuff in noodles and then there is stuff that isn't gluten but is glutten like and people who can't eat it would know what was in it.... It was labeled not sure if it still is all over Fruity Pebbles Really :) FDA is supposed to watch this stuff but I've heard they really don't.... But maybe this is really just a food labeling issue .... Like was do all of them mean low fat in big green splash or even worse lower fat ? With all the science talk what might be interesting to do is to go from shop to shop (Might be tough with different brands though) and see how much the mark up is to things that are organic vs Nonorganic and the prices at all the places.... It being just me I never buy produce (It would go bad) ... my guess and just me guess is that every place that sells organic and or even maybe local has a higher % mark up then normal cause they know people who can afford will get it.... One if they really wanted to do research and have fun (Taste test :) might cause bias) could look into this with craft beers also ......
Lots of really great points.... Where I agree is that Organic is a trend and that is ok and just that label means it can and does sell for more.... Another example of this is Gluten Free.... I'll admit I just know it is the stuff in noodles and then there is stuff that isn't gluten but is glutten like and people who can't eat it would know what was in it.... It was labeled not sure if it still is all over Fruity Pebbles Really :) FDA is supposed to watch this stuff but I've heard they really don't.... But maybe this is really just a food labeling issue .... Like was do all of them mean low fat in big green splash or even worse lower fat ? With all the science talk what might be interesting to do is to go from shop to shop (Might be tough with different brands though) and see how much the mark up is to things that are organic vs Nonorganic and the prices at all the places.... It being just me I never buy produce (It would go bad) ... my guess and just me guess is that every place that sells organic and or even maybe local has a higher % mark up then normal cause they know people who can afford will get it.... One if they really wanted to do research and have fun (Taste test :) might cause bias) could look into this with craft beers also ......
YesThatCasey - 11/08/13 13:22
I'm all for scientific research. My lack of confidence is in the personal interpretation that people adopt of it. "Negligible" is an opinion regarding results, and not a product of the research itself. That isn't to say it is incorrect, but at this moment I see more evidence to the contrary, with apples (conveniently) being a prime example.
I'm all for scientific research. My lack of confidence is in the personal interpretation that people adopt of it. "Negligible" is an opinion regarding results, and not a product of the research itself. That isn't to say it is incorrect, but at this moment I see more evidence to the contrary, with apples (conveniently) being a prime example.
tinypliny - 11/08/13 07:49
I don't blame you. Nothing about science really inspires confidence in anyone anymore. I wasn't making a case for vegetarianism. I was commenting on how pesticide and inorganic chemical residues differentially accumulate in different solvents and how this chemistry might affect food in different levels of the food chain.
You are welcome to eat organic apples, Casey - even if no one has really found any difference between them and the cheaper non-organic ones.
I don't blame you. Nothing about science really inspires confidence in anyone anymore. I wasn't making a case for vegetarianism. I was commenting on how pesticide and inorganic chemical residues differentially accumulate in different solvents and how this chemistry might affect food in different levels of the food chain.
You are welcome to eat organic apples, Casey - even if no one has really found any difference between them and the cheaper non-organic ones.
YesThatCasey - 11/08/13 07:38
"Next to negligible" doesn't invoke a great deal of confidence in me. ;o) Also, comparing apples to orangutans (best I could come up with) is definitely a solid argument for vegetarianism, but if we are comparing organic apples to non-organic apples, organic is very much justified and worthwhile.
jbeatty, I think it is important to differentiate a discussion around "organic" from one about "organic labels". There are many problems with the labeling system that should not be held against the practice and benefits of organic production.
"Next to negligible" doesn't invoke a great deal of confidence in me. ;o) Also, comparing apples to orangutans (best I could come up with) is definitely a solid argument for vegetarianism, but if we are comparing organic apples to non-organic apples, organic is very much justified and worthwhile.
jbeatty, I think it is important to differentiate a discussion around "organic" from one about "organic labels". There are many problems with the labeling system that should not be held against the practice and benefits of organic production.
jbeatty - 11/07/13 16:11
I think organic is sort of a bullshit term used to make more money on processed foods. There are plenty of farms that are producing organic food don't have the label, because they didn't pay the USDA for the privilege. I will totally buy Organic, Local, Heirloom if it tastes really good. I'm fortunate to be able to buy the foods that I want for the most part. Frequently I see no reason to buy organic unless it looks spectacular. I buy local mostly because I like stuff that hasn't been sitting around for a week or longer. But I will never pay $8/lb for cherries, I'm looking at you Whole Foods!
I think organic is sort of a bullshit term used to make more money on processed foods. There are plenty of farms that are producing organic food don't have the label, because they didn't pay the USDA for the privilege. I will totally buy Organic, Local, Heirloom if it tastes really good. I'm fortunate to be able to buy the foods that I want for the most part. Frequently I see no reason to buy organic unless it looks spectacular. I buy local mostly because I like stuff that hasn't been sitting around for a week or longer. But I will never pay $8/lb for cherries, I'm looking at you Whole Foods!
tinypliny - 11/07/13 15:09
(e:Joe) - its a hard debate. I agree. :-)
Casey and you bring up an important point which I ignored. The type of foods that we are assessing changes the nature of the debate a bit. The effects of pesticide and chemical residues are pervasive and real. However, the chemistry of these molecules make them fat-soluble and not water-soluble.
If we compare plant-based produce vs. meat-based products, in general, the fat content in plant-based produce is next to negligible (with a few exceptions). Carrying forward this generalization, it is reasonable to assume that per-weight inorganic residues would be substantially low in a majority of produce when compared with animal-based products (without the fat compartment stripped out).
Animal based foods such as fat-free/skim milk stand out as exceptions. Since the fat content is completely stripped out, any residual chemical content is low. However, you don't have any such benefits with whole milk or partially skimmed milk.
(e:lilho), if you are into a lot of animal-based products without stripped out fat compartments, I would seriously consider if I could afford the pesticide/fertilizer-free versions.
(e:Joe) - its a hard debate. I agree. :-)
Casey and you bring up an important point which I ignored. The type of foods that we are assessing changes the nature of the debate a bit. The effects of pesticide and chemical residues are pervasive and real. However, the chemistry of these molecules make them fat-soluble and not water-soluble.
If we compare plant-based produce vs. meat-based products, in general, the fat content in plant-based produce is next to negligible (with a few exceptions). Carrying forward this generalization, it is reasonable to assume that per-weight inorganic residues would be substantially low in a majority of produce when compared with animal-based products (without the fat compartment stripped out).
Animal based foods such as fat-free/skim milk stand out as exceptions. Since the fat content is completely stripped out, any residual chemical content is low. However, you don't have any such benefits with whole milk or partially skimmed milk.
(e:lilho), if you are into a lot of animal-based products without stripped out fat compartments, I would seriously consider if I could afford the pesticide/fertilizer-free versions.
joe - 11/07/13 14:19
(e:lilho) Yeah I like Trader Joe's produce. It's more expensive than Aldi, but more often than more selection both non-organic and organic, and cheap compared to Wegman's and the coop. Doesn't seem to be local, and I wish they didn't overpackage it so much.
(e:lilho) Yeah I like Trader Joe's produce. It's more expensive than Aldi, but more often than more selection both non-organic and organic, and cheap compared to Wegman's and the coop. Doesn't seem to be local, and I wish they didn't overpackage it so much.
joe - 11/07/13 14:14
Sorry if the post seemed incomplete. I wrote it quickly during lunch.
a) I guess I have to clarify - Paul never specifically said yesterday that the coop is always high quality. By quality in that first statement I meant that Wegman's and the coop tend to have more local and more organic choices than Aldi/Price Rite/Save a lot do. I do think the produce from those two definitely tends to be nicer though, which is reflected in the price.
b) I also agree that nutritionally, organic is on the same level as conventional. However residual pesticides and fertilizers have been found to be typically higher in conventional produce :::link::: Even if it is under the acceptable limits, does long term exposure matter? Briefly looking at the review you linked to, it looks that while nutrition is looking to be a wash, pesticides aren't
c) Also agreed. I think a portion of the price difference has less to do with quality, and more to do with marketing and the fact that organic is "trendy". I don't necessairly have any data to support that besides the fact the Organic Trade Association cites huge growth. :::link:::
e) I will agree with you there. The population and nutrition levels we have globally today are absolutely dependent on petroleum based farming - from the fertilizers to the pesticides to the transportation. I don't think it would have been possible otherwise.
f) Yes, which is why I think organic/etc. is a luxury. If you are struggling to keep yourself full and balanced nutritionally, wondering whether your apples are organic is the last thing on your mind. But for those who do have the income or options to do otherwise, is the impact worth the cost? I'd say I'm on the borderline of that option. It is for sure a privilege if I did, not a necessity.
g) I would rather see my dollars kept locally if possible. This is definitely selfish - I'd prefer to see Buffalo and WNY succeed over other areas. From that viewpoint, local is the way to go, quality not considered. The question is how much am more am I willing to pay to commit to that.
I don't think there is anything wrong with shopping at Aldi or Price Rite - I still get all of my groceries from Aldi and Trader Joe's. I definitely agree with you that organic is not reasonable in it's current form for those on a poverty or near-poverty level, or to feed 7 billion people. Nutritionally I think it's a wash, long term health benefits, pesticide wise, are unclear. In terms of environmental impact, if I can pay more for produce that requires less pesticide and petrofertilizer, or is not transported long distance, is that worth my dollar? I don't think it's an easy conclusion to come to.
Sorry if the post seemed incomplete. I wrote it quickly during lunch.
a) I guess I have to clarify - Paul never specifically said yesterday that the coop is always high quality. By quality in that first statement I meant that Wegman's and the coop tend to have more local and more organic choices than Aldi/Price Rite/Save a lot do. I do think the produce from those two definitely tends to be nicer though, which is reflected in the price.
b) I also agree that nutritionally, organic is on the same level as conventional. However residual pesticides and fertilizers have been found to be typically higher in conventional produce :::link::: Even if it is under the acceptable limits, does long term exposure matter? Briefly looking at the review you linked to, it looks that while nutrition is looking to be a wash, pesticides aren't
As was mentioned above, pesticide residues form part of the
dangerous food contaminants known to exert genotoxic, carcino-
genic, neuro-destructive, endocrine and allergenic effects, and are
usually found in higher contents in conventionally produced plant
products. There is scientific evidence that dietary exposure of chil-
dren to organophosphorus pesticides, measured as the level of
pesticide metabolites in urine, is much lower on an organic than on
a conventional diet [49]. It can be concluded that consumption of
organic foods provides protection against exposure to organophos-
phorus pesticides commonly used in agricultural practices [50].
c) Also agreed. I think a portion of the price difference has less to do with quality, and more to do with marketing and the fact that organic is "trendy". I don't necessairly have any data to support that besides the fact the Organic Trade Association cites huge growth. :::link:::
e) I will agree with you there. The population and nutrition levels we have globally today are absolutely dependent on petroleum based farming - from the fertilizers to the pesticides to the transportation. I don't think it would have been possible otherwise.
f) Yes, which is why I think organic/etc. is a luxury. If you are struggling to keep yourself full and balanced nutritionally, wondering whether your apples are organic is the last thing on your mind. But for those who do have the income or options to do otherwise, is the impact worth the cost? I'd say I'm on the borderline of that option. It is for sure a privilege if I did, not a necessity.
g) I would rather see my dollars kept locally if possible. This is definitely selfish - I'd prefer to see Buffalo and WNY succeed over other areas. From that viewpoint, local is the way to go, quality not considered. The question is how much am more am I willing to pay to commit to that.
I don't think there is anything wrong with shopping at Aldi or Price Rite - I still get all of my groceries from Aldi and Trader Joe's. I definitely agree with you that organic is not reasonable in it's current form for those on a poverty or near-poverty level, or to feed 7 billion people. Nutritionally I think it's a wash, long term health benefits, pesticide wise, are unclear. In terms of environmental impact, if I can pay more for produce that requires less pesticide and petrofertilizer, or is not transported long distance, is that worth my dollar? I don't think it's an easy conclusion to come to.
YesThatCasey - 11/07/13 14:08
Organic is shown to be beneficial to health in some foods, so it is worth identifying which those are are starting with them. In some cases, there is zero benefit to buying "organic" labeled food.
Similarly, local is often better. I would say very often. I don't agree with Tiny that there isn't evidence around us for buying local. The amount of resources, both human and natural, involved in non-local products is just ridiculous and unsustainable. The more intense the manufacturing process, the more you can justify the shipping investment, but the scales are far too tipped towards the latter at this time. There are plenty of other problems to consider as well (centralization of wealth, loss of buying power, etc).
It's nice that you consider the employees compensation as well. Aldi sounds decent on that front.
What little shopping I do, I pretty much do exclusively at Wegman's. There is a distinct difference between the quality of foods, as you mentioned. I appreciate the increased amount of effort they put into their community, with only the co-op surpassing them. And the happiness of their employees is probably the best sign.
I would shop at the co-op more if my budget could justify it. There is definitely a privilege in these options. But, yeah, I'd say foods are one of the first things to upgrade, and organic, local, free-trade, etc are a part of that. And while it's true that what costs the most isn't necessarily the best, what costs the least is often unconsumable in places like Tops.
Organic is shown to be beneficial to health in some foods, so it is worth identifying which those are are starting with them. In some cases, there is zero benefit to buying "organic" labeled food.
Similarly, local is often better. I would say very often. I don't agree with Tiny that there isn't evidence around us for buying local. The amount of resources, both human and natural, involved in non-local products is just ridiculous and unsustainable. The more intense the manufacturing process, the more you can justify the shipping investment, but the scales are far too tipped towards the latter at this time. There are plenty of other problems to consider as well (centralization of wealth, loss of buying power, etc).
It's nice that you consider the employees compensation as well. Aldi sounds decent on that front.
What little shopping I do, I pretty much do exclusively at Wegman's. There is a distinct difference between the quality of foods, as you mentioned. I appreciate the increased amount of effort they put into their community, with only the co-op surpassing them. And the happiness of their employees is probably the best sign.
I would shop at the co-op more if my budget could justify it. There is definitely a privilege in these options. But, yeah, I'd say foods are one of the first things to upgrade, and organic, local, free-trade, etc are a part of that. And while it's true that what costs the most isn't necessarily the best, what costs the least is often unconsumable in places like Tops.
lilho - 11/07/13 14:02
Also, you can get pretty cheap organic at trader joe's and I'm usually impressed with the quality.
Also, you can get pretty cheap organic at trader joe's and I'm usually impressed with the quality.
lilho - 11/07/13 14:01
Well.... Now I'm done buying organic maybe. I just like knowing its all natural and it feels like I'm doing something for my health but apparently not?
Well.... Now I'm done buying organic maybe. I just like knowing its all natural and it feels like I'm doing something for my health but apparently not?
tinypliny - 11/07/13 13:24
Aldi and Trader Joe's are run by the same company, BTW.
I do not agree with Paul that:
a) the coop is always high quality
b) organic is any better for health
c) paying more means you get more "quality"
d) quality is not available at reasonable prices
e) organic is sustainable in the long run
f) organic is good for a population struggling with affordable and basic healthful food choices
g) local is always the way to go.
We live in a global economy and it is borderline ridiculous to be stuck in the buy-local buy-organic rut at all times without hard evidence-supported benefits. Science is far from being black and white about why organic is any better. Take a look: :::link:::
And I am sure (e:Paul) will agree when I point out that he is a snob{*}. Not all of us can afford to turn up our noses at Pricerite when the primary objective is to maintain a good health status and meet nutritional requirements while being on a near-poverty line or low income salary.
It is hard to cater to some activist notion of selling our soul and budgets for unperceivable benefits to our health or to the (for the most part) unregulated "organic" industry when you are wondering how best to afford the maximum proportion of fresh produce that definitely will stop you from sliding into the spiral of chronic diseases - most of which are poor diet related.
{*}He said so himself. :-)
More debate from the past: :::link:::
{Look at the comments section for massive debate!} :::link:::
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Paul being snobbish :::link::: :::link::: :::link:::
Aldi and Trader Joe's are run by the same company, BTW.
I do not agree with Paul that:
a) the coop is always high quality
b) organic is any better for health
c) paying more means you get more "quality"
d) quality is not available at reasonable prices
e) organic is sustainable in the long run
f) organic is good for a population struggling with affordable and basic healthful food choices
g) local is always the way to go.
We live in a global economy and it is borderline ridiculous to be stuck in the buy-local buy-organic rut at all times without hard evidence-supported benefits. Science is far from being black and white about why organic is any better. Take a look: :::link:::
And I am sure (e:Paul) will agree when I point out that he is a snob{*}. Not all of us can afford to turn up our noses at Pricerite when the primary objective is to maintain a good health status and meet nutritional requirements while being on a near-poverty line or low income salary.
It is hard to cater to some activist notion of selling our soul and budgets for unperceivable benefits to our health or to the (for the most part) unregulated "organic" industry when you are wondering how best to afford the maximum proportion of fresh produce that definitely will stop you from sliding into the spiral of chronic diseases - most of which are poor diet related.
{*}He said so himself. :-)
More debate from the past: :::link:::
{Look at the comments section for massive debate!} :::link:::
---
Paul being snobbish :::link::: :::link::: :::link:::
Gandhi has said "Means are after all everything. “As the means so the end." It is the morality of the means that must be judged. It is wrong to use immoral means to achieve a moral end. In such a case, the end, itself, becomes immoral. Certainly, if one applies that standard to the United States and its military action in recent history, the country is a moral failure. The very idea that it is acceptable to kill innocent, unarmed noncombatants during the efforts (such as drone strikes) to kill leaders of organisations that oppose the U.S. is immoral.
Terrorism exists in the eye of the beholder. To those perpetuating the "terrorist" actions, terror is an acceptable, justifiable means to a desirable, moral end. If one thinks about it, the very idea of the "Shock and Awe" Iraqi invasion was to instill terror in the hearts of the Iraqis. Thus, it is terrorism.
There has always been a gap, if not outright dichotomy, between the actions taken to protect the U.S. and lofty ideals of American freedom and democracy. It saddens me that nothing has changed and that the U.S. is still killing in the name of . . . It saddens me even more that a Democratic administration is doing the killing.
We are the terrorists. I mean who killed more innocent people and caused more terror at this point. I am pretty sure its not them.
It starts to be absurd when our country has drones patrolling other countries, looking for terrorists to attack, bombs their targets, takes out innocent civilian bystanders and considers them acceptable collateral damage. At what point do you have to start asking who's the terrorist? Too many people think they've finished doing their part in this so-called democracy just by going out to vote once every 4 years or so. We should all be asking ourselves these questions and engaging in these conversations. We need to stop assuming people are virtuous just because they served in the military, because that's a very naive outloook. In my book, nobody is above suspicion until proven otherwise.
I guess I like to fantasize that everyone has at least limited free will in a democracy without conscription. When it comes down to it, the choice is, will you possibly kill people for money or not. We aren't talking about a defensive war in any of the situations mentioned and honestly most of the military people I have personally met aren't that stupid that they cannot be accountable for the decisions.
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Not everyone is as clever as you and (e:paul). Many who serve in the U.S. armed forces believe the lies that they are told about God and Country. Don't hate and despise them because of that. Ultimately, every country has a war machine that needs cannon fodder. I don't despise the grunts who do the fighting and the dying. Many of those who survive come back broken physically and spiritually and mentally. My anger is for their masters.
I feel the same way but the last time random guest said to me, " Sorry paul but anyone that lives in america and doesnt like it needs to cross the border. Go to Canada PAUL. yOU HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THAT YOU KNOW CAUSE OF THE THOUSANDS OF MEN THAT DIED TO KEEP US FREE. sTOP COMPLAINING OR MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"