Last night after reading my post and responses (e:felly) told me that i came off sounding condescending and...bitchy. really, that is the farthest from my intent..and i had it all up in my head that i wasn't "that" way, but apparently that's not the case.
i do however think that some of my points are being misread. Like I said...I was not talking about individuals and was certainly not attacking anyone, or rather, that was not my intention...Remember, I go to school all day and hear all kinds of shit. So when I write something it is the culmination of a day or a week or a book or whatever. I do however get that I used examples from people's journals on here... but that was for effect rather than being the point of the argument. I apologize for singling people out.
I am not saying that I am the almighty or that I have all the answers either. If I could I would take all the periods out to assure you that my words are not end points, or "final answers" but ideas in progress... And for the record, I don't consider myself a liberal. I think liberalism is a bunch of bs just as much as "democracy" is in this country. but i will be out there voting just like i hope the rest of you will.
and (e:paul), I think that if you read my post you would see that we were on the same page. I said, "Perhaps what they should say is that they are surprised that someone said it IN PUBLIC." Again, just because I used you as an example does not mean that I was attacking you or talking to or about you. Note, I said "who the hell do WE think we are". Not you, them, they... we.
Maybe I need to step back a minute because I really need to make clear that this is not about one on one nonsense. The entire point of my post was to say that our SOCIETY/culture/system allows for and perpetuates this type of thing, not that individual human beings are at fault for the sake of pointing fingers. I don't think that bickering or in fighting gets anyone anywhere.
Honestly, I hate the internet...hate it because I can't' ever properly express emotion via emoticons and bold letters. The sound of my "voice" is read however the reader wants to "hear" it so you can't see that I'm not standing up on a soapbox with a megaphone screaming in your face, but rather, I am dealing with my own shit, working through things and trying to understand and maybe trying to share my ideas with other people. Share, not shove down your throat.
Lauren's Journal
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10/14/2008 10:25 #46105
Meh10/13/2008 18:12 #46098
Nothing's ShockingCategory: rant
I am really not trying to be
scratch that. I apologize too much. Whatevs.
I am NOT surprised that there are racist gay men out there. Or racist white lesbians for that matter. I am NOT surprised that the white power movement is alive in well all over this country. I am not surprised that there are murders every day of queer and trans people in this country and across the globe. I am not surprised that Obama's name was "mis"spelled as Osama. Is it possible to vote for Obama and still be racist? Hell yes. Is it possible to "love" Ellen and still be homophobic? Hell yes. Give me a break.
Who the hell do we think we are?? The 60's was not that long ago my friends. The truth is, people ASSUME that racism and sexism don't exist anymore because PCism has pushed people underground, which is perhaps even more debilitating toward whatever it is that we think we've achieved. I am so sick of good intending white people talking about how "surprised" they were when they overheard this or that explicitly racist or sexist or homophobic remark. Perhaps what they should say is that they are surprised that someone said it IN PUBLIC. I think that we have some skewed and warped perception of ourselves as a progressive, politically correct, modern "civilized" society that has somehow magically overcome this bullshit that has been entrenched for thousands and thousands of years. What we really need to grasp is that racism and sexism and homophobia and ethnocentrism make up the VERY CORE of this society and this globalized world. Until there is a fucking revolution, this things will continue to live and breath and grow and consume. Maybe, just maybe if people would stop being so godam surprised all the time, we could get somewhere.
scratch that. I apologize too much. Whatevs.
I am NOT surprised that there are racist gay men out there. Or racist white lesbians for that matter. I am NOT surprised that the white power movement is alive in well all over this country. I am not surprised that there are murders every day of queer and trans people in this country and across the globe. I am not surprised that Obama's name was "mis"spelled as Osama. Is it possible to vote for Obama and still be racist? Hell yes. Is it possible to "love" Ellen and still be homophobic? Hell yes. Give me a break.
Who the hell do we think we are?? The 60's was not that long ago my friends. The truth is, people ASSUME that racism and sexism don't exist anymore because PCism has pushed people underground, which is perhaps even more debilitating toward whatever it is that we think we've achieved. I am so sick of good intending white people talking about how "surprised" they were when they overheard this or that explicitly racist or sexist or homophobic remark. Perhaps what they should say is that they are surprised that someone said it IN PUBLIC. I think that we have some skewed and warped perception of ourselves as a progressive, politically correct, modern "civilized" society that has somehow magically overcome this bullshit that has been entrenched for thousands and thousands of years. What we really need to grasp is that racism and sexism and homophobia and ethnocentrism make up the VERY CORE of this society and this globalized world. Until there is a fucking revolution, this things will continue to live and breath and grow and consume. Maybe, just maybe if people would stop being so godam surprised all the time, we could get somewhere.
matthew - 10/13/08 21:34
(e:lauren), I think you totally missed the point of the journals you refer to. You have made rash judments on people without being properly informed about them or the issues they talk about. It's kinda offensive.
(e:lauren), I think you totally missed the point of the journals you refer to. You have made rash judments on people without being properly informed about them or the issues they talk about. It's kinda offensive.
paul - 10/13/08 21:33
"I would say maybe particularly toward 'liberals' who think they are so great."
Wait isn't that you?
I, like (e:james), also have innate racist feelings that I wrestle with, spare me I don't need your congratulations for admitting it. Is there anyone of any race that doesn't? I think it is a fear/misunderstanding of the unknown.
Do you think, that I think that life is just a united colors of Benneton ad because of my "liberal" education?
In reference to my journal (e:paul,46096) I was not at all shocked that the man was racist, but rather the way he said "If I don't vote for McCain, the niggers and spics will rule the street" in a public, generally progressive setting with no hint of apprehention or shame about it. It is totally shocking to me especially considering he was saying it to a total stranger, in an environment that is typically progressive and accepting.
While I don't think Political Correctness is an answer to the problem or that it will make people really change their opinion about their racism, sexism or homophobia, I do think being offensively racist in a public setting, sets the ground for the next logical step - hate action.
Think about it, as soon as people are comfortable saying racist, sexist things in public to strangers, there is really no reason to hold back. Moreover, they might actually garner support of other people who are more mildly racist/sexist/homophobic and would not act alone but are susceptible to group mentality and join them to commit actual crimes. Ironically, it was in that parking lot behind underground that I experienced this best when a gang of porto ricans decided to try and kill us for being gay a couple years back. I would have been much happier if they drove by and thought, damn I hate faggots and want to kill them but feel uncomfortable saying something in public, without blocking the street, feeling comfortable enough about the scenario to scream we are going to kill you faggots in public, taking out knives and then trying to actually kill us.
"I would say maybe particularly toward 'liberals' who think they are so great."
Wait isn't that you?
I, like (e:james), also have innate racist feelings that I wrestle with, spare me I don't need your congratulations for admitting it. Is there anyone of any race that doesn't? I think it is a fear/misunderstanding of the unknown.
Do you think, that I think that life is just a united colors of Benneton ad because of my "liberal" education?
In reference to my journal (e:paul,46096) I was not at all shocked that the man was racist, but rather the way he said "If I don't vote for McCain, the niggers and spics will rule the street" in a public, generally progressive setting with no hint of apprehention or shame about it. It is totally shocking to me especially considering he was saying it to a total stranger, in an environment that is typically progressive and accepting.
While I don't think Political Correctness is an answer to the problem or that it will make people really change their opinion about their racism, sexism or homophobia, I do think being offensively racist in a public setting, sets the ground for the next logical step - hate action.
Think about it, as soon as people are comfortable saying racist, sexist things in public to strangers, there is really no reason to hold back. Moreover, they might actually garner support of other people who are more mildly racist/sexist/homophobic and would not act alone but are susceptible to group mentality and join them to commit actual crimes. Ironically, it was in that parking lot behind underground that I experienced this best when a gang of porto ricans decided to try and kill us for being gay a couple years back. I would have been much happier if they drove by and thought, damn I hate faggots and want to kill them but feel uncomfortable saying something in public, without blocking the street, feeling comfortable enough about the scenario to scream we are going to kill you faggots in public, taking out knives and then trying to actually kill us.
drew - 10/13/08 21:28
yeah lauren--it's not a direct line from your concept to that of Total Depravitiy, but they are conencted.
Total Depravity does not mean that we are incapable of change, just that we are incapapable of doing it solely on our own. If you think about it, it makes sense. We need feedback, instruction or a model--even if we have to get it from a book.
Society has changed, but people have not (not too much, anyways) Even though there is less racism written into law, and racism is less accepted in polite company, people are still selfish and prone to scapegoating people that are different than them.
If racism ever goes away (it could--since race is an invented concept, it could also be discredited and forgotten), the problems associated with racism (favoritism, bigotry, scapegoating, hate) will remain. In this way, racism, though horrible, isn't really the core problem. The core problem is human behavior.
yeah lauren--it's not a direct line from your concept to that of Total Depravitiy, but they are conencted.
Total Depravity does not mean that we are incapable of change, just that we are incapapable of doing it solely on our own. If you think about it, it makes sense. We need feedback, instruction or a model--even if we have to get it from a book.
Society has changed, but people have not (not too much, anyways) Even though there is less racism written into law, and racism is less accepted in polite company, people are still selfish and prone to scapegoating people that are different than them.
If racism ever goes away (it could--since race is an invented concept, it could also be discredited and forgotten), the problems associated with racism (favoritism, bigotry, scapegoating, hate) will remain. In this way, racism, though horrible, isn't really the core problem. The core problem is human behavior.
metalpeter - 10/13/08 20:42
I'm sorry I just have to ad one more thing. I try not to be racist and compared to a lot of people one could say I'm not racist. But do to things that Happened in my past I have been made that way some. I do get that most blacks are good and that it is the small amount of people who are "Bad" but I also get that the game is rigged and that is a factor. I have read about some one in the paper and thought I knew someone with that name in High School who lived over that way I wonder if it was him. Also sorry if I misunderstood that you where more talking about the system then people, I took it as people and not the system.
But that brings up a good point. I think that the reason we have straving kids in Africa is because the people are black. If They where white I think more people would donate money and more American Companies and politicans would send help. But since they are black they are thought of as Savages and not the same as whites, or at least not as important. Even if the USA helped more there would still be problems in Africa. Anther sign of our racism is that Most people speak of Europe by country but all the countries in Africa are Called Africa. Ok that is the end of my rant I can't type anymore.
I'm sorry I just have to ad one more thing. I try not to be racist and compared to a lot of people one could say I'm not racist. But do to things that Happened in my past I have been made that way some. I do get that most blacks are good and that it is the small amount of people who are "Bad" but I also get that the game is rigged and that is a factor. I have read about some one in the paper and thought I knew someone with that name in High School who lived over that way I wonder if it was him. Also sorry if I misunderstood that you where more talking about the system then people, I took it as people and not the system.
But that brings up a good point. I think that the reason we have straving kids in Africa is because the people are black. If They where white I think more people would donate money and more American Companies and politicans would send help. But since they are black they are thought of as Savages and not the same as whites, or at least not as important. Even if the USA helped more there would still be problems in Africa. Anther sign of our racism is that Most people speak of Europe by country but all the countries in Africa are Called Africa. Ok that is the end of my rant I can't type anymore.
lauren - 10/13/08 20:15
(e:matthew), I am talking about pretty much everybody. I admit, I wrote this after first reading (e:joshua)'s post and then (e:jim)'s response and then (e:paul)'s, but I didn't write especially about or toward them. I think this is more of an overall generalization and I would say maybe particularly toward "liberals" who think they are so great. I would say that usually my arguments are made about the SYSTEM rather than the individual. Although individuals are always already creating and perpetuating the system, and I don't want to argue that the system somehow exists outside of our ability to change, but rather that the system shapes individuals and hence, we are all products of it.
(e:drew)...hmm...this total depravity thing is interesting, but I'm not quite sure that that's what I'm saying. (although sure this wiki article doesn't say it all :)) My point is not to say that we are incapable of change or transformation, but rather that we think we have ALREADY changed when we have not...or rather, we have changed in way that allows us to think that we have.
(e:james)...thank you. It's so hard for progressive people to admit that they benefit from racism, let alone that they are racist. As if some how the magic of liberal education has cleansed them of the "past" and present realities of white privelege. I mean, when we talk about race, we are almost always talking about blackness just as when we talk about gender we are almost always talking about women. I could go on...but I think you got it :)
(e:matthew), I am talking about pretty much everybody. I admit, I wrote this after first reading (e:joshua)'s post and then (e:jim)'s response and then (e:paul)'s, but I didn't write especially about or toward them. I think this is more of an overall generalization and I would say maybe particularly toward "liberals" who think they are so great. I would say that usually my arguments are made about the SYSTEM rather than the individual. Although individuals are always already creating and perpetuating the system, and I don't want to argue that the system somehow exists outside of our ability to change, but rather that the system shapes individuals and hence, we are all products of it.
(e:drew)...hmm...this total depravity thing is interesting, but I'm not quite sure that that's what I'm saying. (although sure this wiki article doesn't say it all :)) My point is not to say that we are incapable of change or transformation, but rather that we think we have ALREADY changed when we have not...or rather, we have changed in way that allows us to think that we have.
(e:james)...thank you. It's so hard for progressive people to admit that they benefit from racism, let alone that they are racist. As if some how the magic of liberal education has cleansed them of the "past" and present realities of white privelege. I mean, when we talk about race, we are almost always talking about blackness just as when we talk about gender we are almost always talking about women. I could go on...but I think you got it :)
metalpeter - 10/13/08 20:12
I completely agree with your first paragraph and you make a lot of great points. I think that being PC (not the computer) has made things worse. I think that it is important to know that there is a difference between good and bad sterotypes also. When I was a kid the only time I saw relatives was at get to gathers and there was all ways beer so I thought everyone who is Irish was a drunk or had a problem, that isn't true and it is ok for me to say that. But some one else saying that out loud is a problem and if it is at an Irish Bar and really big problem. If someone black talks about the problems of his family and his hood and what they want to do to change it (maybe a preacher or something) that might be looked at as black power and if I agree and go on a march that would be ok maybe. But for me to have those same views and express them, than I'm a racist, if I say it in a negative light or if I think that just because someone is black they are from the Ghetto. Lets flip this most of the sterotypes I have heard about asains were postive like good in school, over achivers, and things like good in math. But if I ask some dude in school and ask if he can teach me self deffense (yes they all know kung fu) dude is going to be pissed or he might be if I ask him for math help and none of the white boys. It is a very fine line from having information about people or a culture and sterotyping.
Ok back to my point about being PC. Every term for someone who is black doesn't really fit or is used wrong in my opinion. The reason why being PC is bad is because it gives people a way of saying what they would say with out sounding bad. For example when Blacks and Hispanics moved onto the westside lots of Italians and other whites didn't like that and so they moved. But instead of saying Nigg... and Spics moved in they say the hood got bad, you mean the Mafia hits were not bad (even if you never saw or heard them). See now they have a way to say something racist in a non racist way. Now people think Nigg... and mean it but they say African American or Homosexual instead of Fag or what ever. The atitude hasn't changed just the wording. Gerorge Carlin had lots of bits about this, in other avenues. Like how no one says he died it is "He Is gone" or "Pasted Away".
I think that there is still lots of hate in this country it is just that the words we use now are better at hiddig it. Because of that people since it isn't in the open pull the act of I'm so offened.
I completely agree with your first paragraph and you make a lot of great points. I think that being PC (not the computer) has made things worse. I think that it is important to know that there is a difference between good and bad sterotypes also. When I was a kid the only time I saw relatives was at get to gathers and there was all ways beer so I thought everyone who is Irish was a drunk or had a problem, that isn't true and it is ok for me to say that. But some one else saying that out loud is a problem and if it is at an Irish Bar and really big problem. If someone black talks about the problems of his family and his hood and what they want to do to change it (maybe a preacher or something) that might be looked at as black power and if I agree and go on a march that would be ok maybe. But for me to have those same views and express them, than I'm a racist, if I say it in a negative light or if I think that just because someone is black they are from the Ghetto. Lets flip this most of the sterotypes I have heard about asains were postive like good in school, over achivers, and things like good in math. But if I ask some dude in school and ask if he can teach me self deffense (yes they all know kung fu) dude is going to be pissed or he might be if I ask him for math help and none of the white boys. It is a very fine line from having information about people or a culture and sterotyping.
Ok back to my point about being PC. Every term for someone who is black doesn't really fit or is used wrong in my opinion. The reason why being PC is bad is because it gives people a way of saying what they would say with out sounding bad. For example when Blacks and Hispanics moved onto the westside lots of Italians and other whites didn't like that and so they moved. But instead of saying Nigg... and Spics moved in they say the hood got bad, you mean the Mafia hits were not bad (even if you never saw or heard them). See now they have a way to say something racist in a non racist way. Now people think Nigg... and mean it but they say African American or Homosexual instead of Fag or what ever. The atitude hasn't changed just the wording. Gerorge Carlin had lots of bits about this, in other avenues. Like how no one says he died it is "He Is gone" or "Pasted Away".
I think that there is still lots of hate in this country it is just that the words we use now are better at hiddig it. Because of that people since it isn't in the open pull the act of I'm so offened.
james - 10/13/08 19:58
I am racist.
I don't say that to be shocking or am making a joke. But I recognize the learned racism in me. I try to be mindful of the almost subconscious things I think and I try to work through them, discover the root of my ignorance and supplant it with understanding.
I find it is a much more constructive task than just patting myself on the back for pretending to be free of such bad thoughts.
I am racist.
I don't say that to be shocking or am making a joke. But I recognize the learned racism in me. I try to be mindful of the almost subconscious things I think and I try to work through them, discover the root of my ignorance and supplant it with understanding.
I find it is a much more constructive task than just patting myself on the back for pretending to be free of such bad thoughts.
drew - 10/13/08 19:10
Theologically speaking, you are touching upon the the concept we call, "total depravity," :::link:::
Which also might be called, "Don't be surprised."
Theologically speaking, you are touching upon the the concept we call, "total depravity," :::link:::
Which also might be called, "Don't be surprised."
10/10/2008 10:45 #46039
Haunted Houses?OK...Felly and I want to go to a haunted house on Saturday and I was wondering if any of you had been to either:
The House of Horrors
or
Fright World
I'm just looking to see which is cooler, scarier, etc etc.
We used to go every year to the Headless Horseman Hay Rides just outside of New Paltz and it was great, partially cause it was outside and usually freezing and you literally were on the a piece of wood being pulled by a tractor through this giant park. And, when you would actually get to the "house" part of the haunt it was effin hot cause you were wearing your winter coat. Good times. I just want to see something scary, something cheesy, a little fake gore and maybe drink some cider. So...suggestions?
The House of Horrors
or
Fright World
I'm just looking to see which is cooler, scarier, etc etc.
We used to go every year to the Headless Horseman Hay Rides
just outside of New Paltz and it was great, partially cause it was outside and usually freezing and you literally were on the a piece of wood being pulled by a tractor through this giant park. And, when you would actually get to the "house" part of the haunt it was effin hot cause you were wearing your winter coat. Good times. I just want to see something scary, something cheesy, a little fake gore and maybe drink some cider. So...suggestions? theecarey - 10/10/08 12:52
Last year I went to pretty much every halloween activity offered. I wrote in a post that although Fright World was really good, it wasnt as "insanely cool" as House of Horrors/Haunted Catacombs. The new "Psycho Therapy" attraction was something memorable for sure.
seriously, all other activities paled in comparison, so thats my vote!
Last year I went to pretty much every halloween activity offered. I wrote in a post that although Fright World was really good, it wasnt as "insanely cool" as House of Horrors/Haunted Catacombs. The new "Psycho Therapy" attraction was something memorable for sure.
seriously, all other activities paled in comparison, so thats my vote!
mike - 10/10/08 11:35
Firghtworld is terrifying .Last year me and (e:jill) actually had to be escorted out of the hautned house thourgh the special exit cuz we ended up huddled in a corner terrifeied and refused to go any further. It was really embarssing. but so that one was pretty scary i thought but then again i am scared of everytihng. Our fireds did the other houses and we had to wait in the outside are like cuz there are 5 houses in it and we were terrified even just in the waiting area.
Firghtworld is terrifying .Last year me and (e:jill) actually had to be escorted out of the hautned house thourgh the special exit cuz we ended up huddled in a corner terrifeied and refused to go any further. It was really embarssing. but so that one was pretty scary i thought but then again i am scared of everytihng. Our fireds did the other houses and we had to wait in the outside are like cuz there are 5 houses in it and we were terrified even just in the waiting area.
mrmike - 10/10/08 11:03
FrightWorld would be my pick
FrightWorld would be my pick
09/28/2008 01:14 #45817
WooohoooSo we went out. (e:heidi), (e:drew), (e:fellyconnelly) and myself had a nice gathering of food and beer at Gabriel's Gate and then went to Battle @ Buffalo (minus (e:drew) unfortunately :( I am probably too intoxicated to be posting, but I will say that it was fun and you all should have been there.
10/06/2008 11:46 #45959
Last WeddingCategory: randomo
I attended this weekend what I hope to be my last wedding of the year. Not that I'm not all for people gettin hitched and all, but man that shit makes me tired. I drove 4+ hours to some place in Ohio on Saturday, sat through a wedding and many hours at a reception with a bad DJ and then went to a hotel and then got up in the morning to drive back home. Weeeeeee!
In other news.... (e:felly) got me sick so on top of drinking too much which for me always means smoking too much, I was sick and making myself sicker. But I feel better now.
Today I have to read the last 250 pages of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Wo! Man, what a book. It's terribly fascinating and curious to me how books become canonized...what a racist piece of garbage. But at the time it was crazy talk that these "simple, childlike critturs" maybe had feelings too. Good grief.
I guess I will go on a minor rant right now for lack of something better to talk about it. 4 hours in the car with my high school best friend led to us talking about racism...and she was like this: well when I sometimes try to show black people that I am not racist, like holding open the door for a black woman and her three kids, sometimes they aren't even grateful, like they don't smile or thank you or anything.
So first of all, I was like...why a black woman and her three kids? Where does this image come from?? Second of all...I think a lot of white people have this notion that because they do something they deem to be "nice" or anti racist or however they frame it for a black person, they deserve special treatment. Like black people should get down on their knees and thank the white person for being a human being. If you were to hold the door open for a white person (sorry, her example) you wouldn't think about what a wonderful white person you were being and if the person didn't thank you for your kindness, you would call them an asshole, not deem them ungrateful for your attempt at being a good whitey. Ug. Ya know? Am I crazy?? I would love feedback on this. And jeez, if the best example you can think of on how to be anti-racist is to hold open a door for a black person then you got a long ways to go. Meh.
Oh yeah and one last thing. I always hear this bs about how "surprised" people are when they overhear overtly racist arguments, as if racism has magically vanished into fairy land and only the grossest humans who think they are safe among friends would dare to speak that way. But seriously, overt racism obviously still exists but in my opinion, that is the least of our worries. The same can go for sexism. Not that I don't think this kind of thing is terribly, I do, but I think that it is that shit that we can't even see in ourselves as being racist or sexist or whateverist that is the scariest thing. The ideologies that make up the fabric of this country and this "global" world that are so entrenched that they are invisible are what scares me. Because how can you fight something that you can't see???
In other news.... (e:felly) got me sick so on top of drinking too much which for me always means smoking too much, I was sick and making myself sicker. But I feel better now.
Today I have to read the last 250 pages of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Wo! Man, what a book. It's terribly fascinating and curious to me how books become canonized...what a racist piece of garbage. But at the time it was crazy talk that these "simple, childlike critturs" maybe had feelings too. Good grief.
I guess I will go on a minor rant right now for lack of something better to talk about it. 4 hours in the car with my high school best friend led to us talking about racism...and she was like this: well when I sometimes try to show black people that I am not racist, like holding open the door for a black woman and her three kids, sometimes they aren't even grateful, like they don't smile or thank you or anything.
So first of all, I was like...why a black woman and her three kids? Where does this image come from?? Second of all...I think a lot of white people have this notion that because they do something they deem to be "nice" or anti racist or however they frame it for a black person, they deserve special treatment. Like black people should get down on their knees and thank the white person for being a human being. If you were to hold the door open for a white person (sorry, her example) you wouldn't think about what a wonderful white person you were being and if the person didn't thank you for your kindness, you would call them an asshole, not deem them ungrateful for your attempt at being a good whitey. Ug. Ya know? Am I crazy?? I would love feedback on this. And jeez, if the best example you can think of on how to be anti-racist is to hold open a door for a black person then you got a long ways to go. Meh.
Oh yeah and one last thing. I always hear this bs about how "surprised" people are when they overhear overtly racist arguments, as if racism has magically vanished into fairy land and only the grossest humans who think they are safe among friends would dare to speak that way. But seriously, overt racism obviously still exists but in my opinion, that is the least of our worries. The same can go for sexism. Not that I don't think this kind of thing is terribly, I do, but I think that it is that shit that we can't even see in ourselves as being racist or sexist or whateverist that is the scariest thing. The ideologies that make up the fabric of this country and this "global" world that are so entrenched that they are invisible are what scares me. Because how can you fight something that you can't see???
fellyconnelly - 10/07/08 22:38
i bet you were a big jerk to her, weren't you? you yelled at poor christine and made her feel stupid. tsk tsk..... :)
i bet you were a big jerk to her, weren't you? you yelled at poor christine and made her feel stupid. tsk tsk..... :)
metalpeter - 10/06/08 18:41
The thing is that your friend was trying to show them she wasn't racist. To me that seems weird. It is like saying I'm racist but I don't want them to think I'm a racist so I'll hold the door for them. It is like how some people will state facts about African Americans and since they don't use "The N Word" (but they think it) then it looks like they aren't racist. The other weird thing is holding a door open is just good manors and I didn't know it had anything to do with race. What I think though is that some one with those same Manners would say thank you. Now maybe if someone black held the door then the mother might have said thank you but maybe not. It could be that the women didn't want her to think she was doing her a favor. Hey she also has 3 kids to deal with saying thank you isn't the biggest priority.
Yeah some people are surprised by racism and act shocked and really are. But see a lot of it is BS. See if they act shocked then that implies that they aren't that way. Racism like a lot of things is ok when you are around other people your own race but not when the races are mixed or you are out in public. Lets not forget that whites are not the only ones who are racist I have been on both sides of this. My life has taught me that everyone is at least a little bit racist or hateful of some group of people.
The thing is that your friend was trying to show them she wasn't racist. To me that seems weird. It is like saying I'm racist but I don't want them to think I'm a racist so I'll hold the door for them. It is like how some people will state facts about African Americans and since they don't use "The N Word" (but they think it) then it looks like they aren't racist. The other weird thing is holding a door open is just good manors and I didn't know it had anything to do with race. What I think though is that some one with those same Manners would say thank you. Now maybe if someone black held the door then the mother might have said thank you but maybe not. It could be that the women didn't want her to think she was doing her a favor. Hey she also has 3 kids to deal with saying thank you isn't the biggest priority.
Yeah some people are surprised by racism and act shocked and really are. But see a lot of it is BS. See if they act shocked then that implies that they aren't that way. Racism like a lot of things is ok when you are around other people your own race but not when the races are mixed or you are out in public. Lets not forget that whites are not the only ones who are racist I have been on both sides of this. My life has taught me that everyone is at least a little bit racist or hateful of some group of people.
james - 10/06/08 13:01
you are surprised? Um, HELLO! They can now vote and sit anywhere on the bus they like. They won. Everyone is equal now.
or something....
you are surprised? Um, HELLO! They can now vote and sit anywhere on the bus they like. They won. Everyone is equal now.
or something....
jason - 10/06/08 13:01
Sure, I'll offer some feedback.
I think you're right, overt sexism and racism do still exist in this country, and many times people fail to see it in themselves because of other concerns. Sometimes it is just accepted as a means to an end, other times it is deliciously unconscious.
I don't understand why your friend feels she has to go out of her way to be seen as "anti-racist" - and I really don't understand her misguided (although well intentioned) attempts to be seen as such. Nobody really has to go out of their way to do this, and anyway I can see how it would appear to be incredibly patronizing.
Normally people don't do this unless they really have something to feel guilty about, or they are backed into a wall and forced into a faulty argument where they try to prove a negative and explain how they are not racist in nature. In either case I don't see the point. We're all judged by out actions anyway.
Sure, I'll offer some feedback.
I think you're right, overt sexism and racism do still exist in this country, and many times people fail to see it in themselves because of other concerns. Sometimes it is just accepted as a means to an end, other times it is deliciously unconscious.
I don't understand why your friend feels she has to go out of her way to be seen as "anti-racist" - and I really don't understand her misguided (although well intentioned) attempts to be seen as such. Nobody really has to go out of their way to do this, and anyway I can see how it would appear to be incredibly patronizing.
Normally people don't do this unless they really have something to feel guilty about, or they are backed into a wall and forced into a faulty argument where they try to prove a negative and explain how they are not racist in nature. In either case I don't see the point. We're all judged by out actions anyway.
I will admit that when I read it, it didn't sound condescending or bitchy to me. I also want to add that it did seem to be written about certain people as opposed to the system. I think that once that was clarified that made things better. Yes writing in voice is tough. Once someone knows you better and knows how you talk they can kinda get a sense of what you mean more. If you are around someone enough when you read there blog you will hear it in their actual voice, that happened to me for a couple months with someones blog, it was interesting. I used to have favorite blogs and I really don't anymore but yours are all ways interesting or at least they are a lot of the time so keep it up, and keep things interesting.
Our true 'voice' is a challenge, as you said, it is the readers interpretation (and we interpret based on our experiences etc). If things are misinterpreted then we have the chance/opportunity to re explain, ask questions, open a dialogue. Given what you have written in the past, I think if you were targeting anyone you would have said their names. If you had a specific issue with someone you would have named them specifically. I get that you were taking in and processing peoples thoughts (specific and in general) but that your rant output wasn't an attack- more of a springboard. For what its worth, in this case, I simply 'get it'.
Keep writing!
Tangentially related: :::link:::
It is very difficult to give a tone to writing on the internet which does lead to misunderstanding. Its probably good practive for writing books though ;) I do not think you should stop writing about your feelings on the issues, but rather you should just write about them more. The more you write the better you will get at judging how your writing comes across. Sadly, even after 3000+ journals I am still not that good at it.
To me it was definately this paragraph. If you had continued with the we perspective it would have read totally different:
"I am so sick of good intending white people talking about how 'surprised' they were when they overheard this or that explicitly racist or sexist or homophobic remark. Perhaps what they should say is that they are surprised that someone said it IN PUBLIC."
By using they instead of we in this case, it puts your in the category along with the good intentioned white people, instead of putting you somewhere else, which lead me to perceive you thought you were judging from outside the scenario.
well, we will just have to settle this like civilized people in a jello wrestling match at the halloween party.