Probably the most complicated question I ever get asked is, "what do you do?" This isn't the sort of question that I can blurt out three syllables to give a good answer. Since I was asked to describe my job in a journal entry, here it is!
Corporate Social Responsibility
This is the industry that we are in, although I just refer to what we do as "social compliance." In a nutshell, our industry kicked off when Kathie Lee Gifford got into trouble about 10 years back for being associated with a sweatshop in Honduras, which was manufacturing goods for Wal-Mart. As a result of the media exposure and pressure from labor activists, the industry was launched and now virtually every major retailer in the world either has their own auditing department or hire a company like ours. Companies do this because their reputations can be quantified in dollars, so investing in this sort of endeavor is a way to certify that their products are being ethically sourced. Companies like Nike have their own auditors. Other companies hire us because we are independent and therefore our evaluations have a bit more credibility - we are not affiliated with the company that is being audited nor are we directly affiliated with our clients. This is a very niche type of industry - most of the companies that do independent auditing are small and we all know each other.
The Buffalo area is home to one of the most accredited and well respected independent monitoring firms in the world - the company I work for! My company is the primary, preferred monitoring firm for several large retailers that you all are commonly familiar with, dozens of private manufacturers that are seeking certification to a worldwide independent standard, and most recently several major universities. We are accredited to perform audits on behalf of the Fair Labor Association, Worldwide Retail Apparel Production, SA8000 (the top standard), ISO, C-TPAT (this is a security audit program designed by private industry and the Department of Homeland Security), among others, and not mentioning the individual standards that certain major retailer clients write for themselves (some are weaker than others).
Our company has offices in India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Mexico, and of course Buffalo. We have auditors in several countries - having locals is incredibly important and we try to do so as much as possible. It cuts down on travel costs, which my boss loves. We have to travel in order to do our job - this brings us to countries in the entire Western Hemisphere, but we mainly work in North/Central America, the Carribean and Asia. Probably the foreign countries we do most of our work in are located in Central America and Asia, but we also do loads of work in the continental United States - personally I've been to 32 states and counting. I've been through the airports in almost every major city in the United States - my favorite airport is the one in Buffalo, since it means I'm home and not somewhere else! My favorite places in the United States are Seattle, Southern California, the desert and Texas.
We are social compliance auditors - we are paid to visit factories and verify whether or not the facility we are visiting is adhering to labor and health and safety laws as applicable in the locality we are in. So yes, we are familiar with the laws in all the states we visit, individual provinces in Canada, or whatever country we are in, as well as an entire criteria of soft issues such as harassment and abuse, forced labor, child labor, discrimination, collective bargaining/freedom of association and the like. We meet with members of management ranging from production managers all the way to the CEO. I explain to them exactly how the audit is going to work and what we need - because this is done as a contractual obligation for these facilities to sell to our clients they give us access to a wide variety of sensitive information. We examine employee files, payroll information, company policies and a laundry list of safety documentation to determine whether or not the facility meets the standard we are auditing to that day. We are interested in knowing if pay records and time records match, if any illegal deductions are being taken out, if inappropriate disciplinary actions are being taken by the employer, if the workers are being paid on time and legally, if workers are working excessive hours and a host of other things that are too many in number to mention in this already long paragraph. What we see and hear dictates where we probe next.
We interview employees at random and in private, with no interference or participation from management - here employees are given the opportunity to tell me what they like and dislike about the company they are working for, and it gives me the opportunity to verify things we may have found during document review or possibly learn about a potential problem to look for. As a rule we dress casually - we find that workers are more at ease when we're wearing jeans. We also do a health and safety inspection of the plant - in the US the facilities are bound by OSHA but in other countries the laws may be weaker, so almost invariably the standards we audit to include some aspects of OSHA as well as other basic health and safety criteria that, in some cases, go above and beyond the written law.
I'm leaving an extraordinary amount of detail out here, but you get the idea. We assemble a ton of data, create a snapshot of the facility and provide to our client reports that indicate how good or how poor the facility was. We do have some latitude in interpreting the standards that we are auditing to, depending on the issue, but for the most part these are very rigid, very strict standards that must be complied with. As a contractual obligation of doing business with The Big Gray Box, for example, you *must* clear an ethical standards audit to sell to them. If they are not satisfied, they cease accepting orders from that particular manufacturer that is giving us trouble. Typically just the threat of such a thing gets these facilities to beg us to revisit them as soon as possible, and yes, they give us what they wouldn't give us before the minute we walk in. I've audited companies as small as 3 floor workers, all the way up to large corporations with $150 million in accounts with our client. These companies give us an enormous amount of respect, and we have to use our authority discreetly. Depending on our judgments these companies could be set to lose millions of dollars and hundreds of jobs so it is to their benefit, although they see us as intruders, to go through with the audit. In the past, unfortunately, because a facility was firing employees a dozen at a time for even mentioning unionization, the facility had to close because they lost business with our client.... and 800 people lost their jobs. You can see that we have to strike a balance at times, but first and foremost our concern is for the worker and we approach our job professionally.
Generally, we are there to assess the facility to determine if the workers are getting what they are legally entitled to, that nothing is being taken away from them without their consent, that they are being treated ethically and with respect, that their basic human rights are being respected, that nobody is being abused or wrongfully treated, that workers aren't being overworked and that the company is providing to its workers everything that they need in order to be productive but most importantly safe. Like I've mentioned, we work off of individual company standards and independent global certifications. As a company policy, we also pass on "best practices" everywhere we go - we occasionally see some really great things that we tuck away and pass on to other companies if we think it would improve their situation.
Believe it or not I'm summarizing. If you have a question about an individual topic, ask away - I'll be as specific as I can. Unlike a lot of latte sipping pseudo-intellectuals that complain about worker mistreatment and lack of rights in Guangdong province, I'm at the front line of workers rights and sandwiched in between the workers, the companies that hire them and the large retailers that buy their products. I have an insiders look and a privileged point of view regarding these issues. We actually are the ones that visit these "sweatshops." I can tell you who deserves their reputation and who doesn't, the worst thing I've seen, the coolest items I've seen being made (my job is sometimes like a daily field trip), what I like about my job/what I hate about my job, the limitations of our industry - you name it I'll try to answer it.
Joshua's Journal
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09/05/2007 19:32 #40958
What We DoCategory: work
09/03/2007 14:44 #40912
You Honk We DrinkI already wrote a journal entry today (see below) but I couldn't ignore these guys if I wanted to... they are set up directly across the street.
Don't forget about these guys!
UPDATE: (e:felly) asked... so here we are 5 hours later. They got rid of the big sign because it kept blowing over... har har har.
Don't forget about these guys!
UPDATE: (e:felly) asked... so here we are 5 hours later. They got rid of the big sign because it kept blowing over... har har har.
joshua - 09/04/07 10:21
They drank from about 11am until 8pm - once it started getting dark they began to drop like flies. Speaking of flies, you should have seen our more underprivileged residents jumping on those empty cans!
They drank from about 11am until 8pm - once it started getting dark they began to drop like flies. Speaking of flies, you should have seen our more underprivileged residents jumping on those empty cans!
fellyconnelly - 09/03/07 21:41
thanks for the update! it looks as though they started multiplying! funny how beer does that.
how late were they at it?
thanks for the update! it looks as though they started multiplying! funny how beer does that.
how late were they at it?
jenks - 09/03/07 20:42
what an awesome drinking game!!!!
what an awesome drinking game!!!!
jason - 09/03/07 20:38
Hee hee
Hee hee
joshua - 09/03/07 17:15
Er... yeah. Me! (e:jason) always logs himself back in and never logs out... the bloody bastard!
Er... yeah. Me! (e:jason) always logs himself back in and never logs out... the bloody bastard!
jason - 09/03/07 17:13
Yep it was me - I think we had some mutual recognition going on there.
I took your idea into practice Felly - I updated w/a new picture!
Yep it was me - I think we had some mutual recognition going on there.
I took your idea into practice Felly - I updated w/a new picture!
mrmike - 09/03/07 16:19
Thought I saw you on your porch (Jason told which was which). I had half a notion to yell a hello, but figured there were already enough yahoos screaming in the street.
Thought I saw you on your porch (Jason told which was which). I had half a notion to yell a hello, but figured there were already enough yahoos screaming in the street.
fellyconnelly - 09/03/07 15:47
wait... these guys do this often??? i definetely honked for them. both times i went by.
being across the street from them, it would be interesting to tape them throughout the day - maybe get an interesting video of their progression...
wait... these guys do this often??? i definetely honked for them. both times i went by.
being across the street from them, it would be interesting to tape them throughout the day - maybe get an interesting video of their progression...
mrmike - 09/03/07 15:23
I was just getting a soda at Spot -- couldn't miss em.
I was just getting a soda at Spot -- couldn't miss em.
james - 09/03/07 15:10
They are there every year, without fail. I have to admire that.
They are there every year, without fail. I have to admire that.
09/03/2007 12:57 #40908
Labor DayJust remember, its only temporary. Unless you are un or underemployed (you know who you are), tomorrow you get to return to the grind and today is simply an oasis. Keeping this in mind, even though its cloudy outside, enjoy it!
Today I'm grilling corn on the cob! This is something I love to do. Why? Because grilled corn on the cob is effing delicious.
Our grandmother was admitted to a hospital in Jamestown on Wednesday, and nobody back home (including my father) bothered to tell me about it. Well, this isn't entirely accurate - my father called me while I was at work in Toronto, I couldn't check my messages, and when I did and called him back, he never bothered to return my call. I found out she was sick from my brother, who called me just as I pulled up to my office. How rude! In any case, she is okay but has been diagnosed with some sort of heart condition that will require her to be less active and to keep in mind that she needs to take rests when she does do things. She is 79 and up until now she's never been prescribed any kind of medication outside of a mild happy pill (she's a worrier).
So, we drove home on Friday night and I visited her at the hospital while Jason had his fantasy football draft. I brought her some dark chocolate from Fowler's but she was too tired to eat it... they ran some tests and shot that slightly radioactive fluid through her veins to detect clots or other problems. The good news is that she is out of the hospital - I feel better with her being able to sleep in her own bed. She complained about the hospital food - I understand the need for budget restraint but for Christ's sake, can't we feed these sick people something decent if they are holed up in a hospital bed? I saw her food - its borderline prisoner quality.
My general impression, obviously, of seeing my grandmother in a hospital bed was disturbing and I didn't like it at all. This was the same place that my grandfather died, and seeing my other grandparent in a similar situation reminded me of the sad fact that one day my brother, my father and I will still be together but will feel very alone. We had a highly unorthodox situation in our household growing up, but it allowed me to effectively have three parents (my dad, my grandparents) and so she is, for all intents and purposes, my mother.
The positives outside of seeing my grandmother out of the hospital was being able to hang with my hippie father and go to local farmer's market - its Jamestown but Anderson's off of Foote Ave. (if you are ever in J-Town for some reason) blows away the bullshit going down on Bidwell (or anything else around here) every weekend. I got some fabulous sweet peppers and some jalepenos. I don't know what to do with the jalepenos but I wanted them anyway - I am usually confident that I'll find something useful to do with them! Any suggestions for recipes for stuffed sweet peppers, or what to do with the jalepenos, are more than welcome. We also bought some homemade granola and some other things, but of course included in our little farmer's market adventure was the corn on the cob. I wish I could have literally bought the stand - there was so much great looking local produce along with some other local treats. Weg is local but its still ultra corporate - its nice to stuff the cash directly into the farmers' collective hands for once!
I made a recipe for escarole and bean soup with sausage that is in the fall Menu Magazine from Wegman's - it turned out great! It looks just like the picture - I did not take a picture of my soup but if you look in the Menu Magazine, there you have it. We have plenty of leftovers, but I'm sorry to say that its all spoken for! Oh, and while shopping for ingredients for the soup I pulled the :paulomatic trick of asking nicely for two flavors of the gelato - I tried the coffee and the "Tahitian vanilla." I must say - it was good but the gelato at Dolci is far creamier.
Happy birthday to those of you that I missed the wishes for - have a great week, starting with todays fleeting yet enjoyable cloudy oasis!
Today I'm grilling corn on the cob! This is something I love to do. Why? Because grilled corn on the cob is effing delicious.
Our grandmother was admitted to a hospital in Jamestown on Wednesday, and nobody back home (including my father) bothered to tell me about it. Well, this isn't entirely accurate - my father called me while I was at work in Toronto, I couldn't check my messages, and when I did and called him back, he never bothered to return my call. I found out she was sick from my brother, who called me just as I pulled up to my office. How rude! In any case, she is okay but has been diagnosed with some sort of heart condition that will require her to be less active and to keep in mind that she needs to take rests when she does do things. She is 79 and up until now she's never been prescribed any kind of medication outside of a mild happy pill (she's a worrier).
So, we drove home on Friday night and I visited her at the hospital while Jason had his fantasy football draft. I brought her some dark chocolate from Fowler's but she was too tired to eat it... they ran some tests and shot that slightly radioactive fluid through her veins to detect clots or other problems. The good news is that she is out of the hospital - I feel better with her being able to sleep in her own bed. She complained about the hospital food - I understand the need for budget restraint but for Christ's sake, can't we feed these sick people something decent if they are holed up in a hospital bed? I saw her food - its borderline prisoner quality.
My general impression, obviously, of seeing my grandmother in a hospital bed was disturbing and I didn't like it at all. This was the same place that my grandfather died, and seeing my other grandparent in a similar situation reminded me of the sad fact that one day my brother, my father and I will still be together but will feel very alone. We had a highly unorthodox situation in our household growing up, but it allowed me to effectively have three parents (my dad, my grandparents) and so she is, for all intents and purposes, my mother.
The positives outside of seeing my grandmother out of the hospital was being able to hang with my hippie father and go to local farmer's market - its Jamestown but Anderson's off of Foote Ave. (if you are ever in J-Town for some reason) blows away the bullshit going down on Bidwell (or anything else around here) every weekend. I got some fabulous sweet peppers and some jalepenos. I don't know what to do with the jalepenos but I wanted them anyway - I am usually confident that I'll find something useful to do with them! Any suggestions for recipes for stuffed sweet peppers, or what to do with the jalepenos, are more than welcome. We also bought some homemade granola and some other things, but of course included in our little farmer's market adventure was the corn on the cob. I wish I could have literally bought the stand - there was so much great looking local produce along with some other local treats. Weg is local but its still ultra corporate - its nice to stuff the cash directly into the farmers' collective hands for once!
I made a recipe for escarole and bean soup with sausage that is in the fall Menu Magazine from Wegman's - it turned out great! It looks just like the picture - I did not take a picture of my soup but if you look in the Menu Magazine, there you have it. We have plenty of leftovers, but I'm sorry to say that its all spoken for! Oh, and while shopping for ingredients for the soup I pulled the :paulomatic trick of asking nicely for two flavors of the gelato - I tried the coffee and the "Tahitian vanilla." I must say - it was good but the gelato at Dolci is far creamier.
Happy birthday to those of you that I missed the wishes for - have a great week, starting with todays fleeting yet enjoyable cloudy oasis!
08/28/2007 11:26 #40778
iPhone HackedToday's top story on Yahoo! - 
Supernerd George Hotz, 17-year old whiz kid and future brain mechanic, managed (with the help of some online collaborators, no less) to unlock his iPhone so that he could use T-Mobile, or most of the other networks for that matter. What did he do? He traded his modified phone for a car and 3 new iPhones. The party he traded his phone to say that there are no plans "on the table" to commercialize this. *COUGH.* Sure pal, sure.
In any case, bravo George! I love it when kids are too smart for their own good and then parlay their know-how to their benefit like this.
Oh, Elmwood Art Festival - glad its over. I look forward to the festival but dealing with the annoyance of it all brings out the curmudgeon in me. Its fun for the first couple of hours, until strangers decide that your private residence is a perfect place to park their lazy asses to lick an ice cream cone and can't bear to walk the 250 feet to the pre-prepared food tent, complete with seating. Not to mention that the trash that people leave behind is ridiculous - who drops plastic wrappers in a rose garden and walks away? In general its a pain in the ass, but the neighborhood cheerfully puts this show on every year. One year I came home only to see a drunk guy passed out on my porch, with his friend sitting there with him telling me, "its cool man, its cool." No it isn't and get the fuck off my porch!
The good things involved gelato at Dolci, a couple fresh-filled canolis for (e:jason) and I and a new ashtray that I bought for $6. I got a pulled pork sandwich at Fat Bob's stand, which came without a bun because they ran out by 2PM. I have to say, the meat was completely flavorless - Fat Bob's Smokehouse is a joke. Dolci claims that they are the only place in the area that fresh fills canolis on a regular basis - is this true? There were some other items at the food court that looked interesting - I'm sure that this was well-received by the visitors. My only request - can we sort out this problem w/not serving alcohol? All I wanted was some sangria mixed with ice and I came home with an ashtray and flavorless pulled pork in a cup!
For once I was actually enthusiastic about some of the things I saw at this festival. A woodworker was demonstrating his skills making items using a pedal-powered saw - how cool! This guy was attracting a crowd of spectators and the kids definitely enjoyed it. Also, some paintings and other pictures I saw were truly impressive and not as obscenely priced as in the past. I saw a painting I wanted - $75. Unfortunately for the painting I'm about to buy a Chelsea FC home shirt, hehe. Planet Love had their hippie t-shirts, and other places had tie-dye items. I found myself admiring some of the different ceramic items - if I had a place for this stuff they would have made for excellent room decorations. I felt that some of the ceramic items were far too expensive, however. $16 for a ceramic mug? You're having a laugh! I saw a t-shirt I was so tempted to buy that I'm sure you saw if you walked the festival - Keep Elmwood Freaky! Ahhh... irony.
I was most pleased to see multiple areas where music was being performed - SORT YOURSELF OUT ALLENTOWN ART FESTIVAL! You cannot have a proper street festival without live music being performed - period, end of story. Generally I enjoyed the festival this year and we did have some great weather on Sunday to properly enjoy it. While I do complain about the problems that having this festival on my block brings along with it, there is a certain amount of pride in having an opportunity to show off your neighborhood in this way. You have to prepare for this festival - buy up all the beer and food you can get, park your car somewhere legal, don't expect to move your car unless you leave late at night, and just enjoy the two days.
Oh, and Mike Niman was hanging outside the front of my house on Saturday. For a guy on government salary as a professor, for Christ's (and everyone elses) sake couldn't he manage to clean himself up a little? It reminded me of that hilarious picture of him taken in the back seat of a cop car after being arrested by Buffalo's finest - during an altercation involving Critical Mass. That was the funniest thing the Beast ever published... hate to give them credit but cheers!
Supernerd George Hotz, 17-year old whiz kid and future brain mechanic, managed (with the help of some online collaborators, no less) to unlock his iPhone so that he could use T-Mobile, or most of the other networks for that matter. What did he do? He traded his modified phone for a car and 3 new iPhones. The party he traded his phone to say that there are no plans "on the table" to commercialize this. *COUGH.* Sure pal, sure.
In any case, bravo George! I love it when kids are too smart for their own good and then parlay their know-how to their benefit like this.
Oh, Elmwood Art Festival - glad its over. I look forward to the festival but dealing with the annoyance of it all brings out the curmudgeon in me. Its fun for the first couple of hours, until strangers decide that your private residence is a perfect place to park their lazy asses to lick an ice cream cone and can't bear to walk the 250 feet to the pre-prepared food tent, complete with seating. Not to mention that the trash that people leave behind is ridiculous - who drops plastic wrappers in a rose garden and walks away? In general its a pain in the ass, but the neighborhood cheerfully puts this show on every year. One year I came home only to see a drunk guy passed out on my porch, with his friend sitting there with him telling me, "its cool man, its cool." No it isn't and get the fuck off my porch!
The good things involved gelato at Dolci, a couple fresh-filled canolis for (e:jason) and I and a new ashtray that I bought for $6. I got a pulled pork sandwich at Fat Bob's stand, which came without a bun because they ran out by 2PM. I have to say, the meat was completely flavorless - Fat Bob's Smokehouse is a joke. Dolci claims that they are the only place in the area that fresh fills canolis on a regular basis - is this true? There were some other items at the food court that looked interesting - I'm sure that this was well-received by the visitors. My only request - can we sort out this problem w/not serving alcohol? All I wanted was some sangria mixed with ice and I came home with an ashtray and flavorless pulled pork in a cup!
For once I was actually enthusiastic about some of the things I saw at this festival. A woodworker was demonstrating his skills making items using a pedal-powered saw - how cool! This guy was attracting a crowd of spectators and the kids definitely enjoyed it. Also, some paintings and other pictures I saw were truly impressive and not as obscenely priced as in the past. I saw a painting I wanted - $75. Unfortunately for the painting I'm about to buy a Chelsea FC home shirt, hehe. Planet Love had their hippie t-shirts, and other places had tie-dye items. I found myself admiring some of the different ceramic items - if I had a place for this stuff they would have made for excellent room decorations. I felt that some of the ceramic items were far too expensive, however. $16 for a ceramic mug? You're having a laugh! I saw a t-shirt I was so tempted to buy that I'm sure you saw if you walked the festival - Keep Elmwood Freaky! Ahhh... irony.
I was most pleased to see multiple areas where music was being performed - SORT YOURSELF OUT ALLENTOWN ART FESTIVAL! You cannot have a proper street festival without live music being performed - period, end of story. Generally I enjoyed the festival this year and we did have some great weather on Sunday to properly enjoy it. While I do complain about the problems that having this festival on my block brings along with it, there is a certain amount of pride in having an opportunity to show off your neighborhood in this way. You have to prepare for this festival - buy up all the beer and food you can get, park your car somewhere legal, don't expect to move your car unless you leave late at night, and just enjoy the two days.
Oh, and Mike Niman was hanging outside the front of my house on Saturday. For a guy on government salary as a professor, for Christ's (and everyone elses) sake couldn't he manage to clean himself up a little? It reminded me of that hilarious picture of him taken in the back seat of a cop car after being arrested by Buffalo's finest - during an altercation involving Critical Mass. That was the funniest thing the Beast ever published... hate to give them credit but cheers!
joshua - 09/03/07 12:55
That is correct, as far as I know - he traded the phone and didn't give them step by step directions. During his interview though, he describes in a fair bit of detail what the process was that allowed him to do it.
When you purchase something you can do whatever the hell you want to with it - its a free country. Apple cannot control, legally or otherwise, what people do with their products once they are purchased. I think where the legal issue really hits is how to apply this knowledge commercially without Apple's consent - for example, I can't see how legally the company that procured this kid's iPhone can sell reconfigured iPhones to the general public. I can see this becoming an issue in the future because, well, AT&T is shit!
That is correct, as far as I know - he traded the phone and didn't give them step by step directions. During his interview though, he describes in a fair bit of detail what the process was that allowed him to do it.
When you purchase something you can do whatever the hell you want to with it - its a free country. Apple cannot control, legally or otherwise, what people do with their products once they are purchased. I think where the legal issue really hits is how to apply this knowledge commercially without Apple's consent - for example, I can't see how legally the company that procured this kid's iPhone can sell reconfigured iPhones to the general public. I can see this becoming an issue in the future because, well, AT&T is shit!
jenks - 08/31/07 13:24
i dunno... just b/c he bought it doesn't mean he can just alter it, can he? at least, aside from 'for private use'... aren't there about a million patents/copyrights on every aspect of the iphone?
but maybe i read it wrong-he just sold/traded the altered phone- not instructions on HOW to alter it?
i dunno... just b/c he bought it doesn't mean he can just alter it, can he? at least, aside from 'for private use'... aren't there about a million patents/copyrights on every aspect of the iphone?
but maybe i read it wrong-he just sold/traded the altered phone- not instructions on HOW to alter it?
joshua - 08/29/07 11:53
I'm not entirely sure about the legality of what he did, other than to say that a) he bought it, he's free to alter it however he likes, BUT; b) receiving compensation for his altered iPhone is a legal gray area that I'm not going to presume to understand. Since he is simply trading something he bought and not actually pursuing commercialization of his concept I'd assume he is in the clear but I'm not entirely sure. I don't think that the company would have agreed to compensate him if there were a question of legality, but you never know these days!
I'm not entirely sure about the legality of what he did, other than to say that a) he bought it, he's free to alter it however he likes, BUT; b) receiving compensation for his altered iPhone is a legal gray area that I'm not going to presume to understand. Since he is simply trading something he bought and not actually pursuing commercialization of his concept I'd assume he is in the clear but I'm not entirely sure. I don't think that the company would have agreed to compensate him if there were a question of legality, but you never know these days!
jason - 08/28/07 16:51
Yeah, Niman probably is still wearing the same t-shirt. I think the PC term for this is "earthy" yeah?
Yeah, Niman probably is still wearing the same t-shirt. I think the PC term for this is "earthy" yeah?
jenks - 08/28/07 16:04
ummm, isn't it like super-illegal to hack his iphone like that? I mean I know people have been working on it since the second they came out, but can't apple sue the pants of that kid?
ummm, isn't it like super-illegal to hack his iphone like that? I mean I know people have been working on it since the second they came out, but can't apple sue the pants of that kid?
08/24/2007 10:13 #40705
VariousThis morning during the drive to work I wondered to myself about the decorations in my bedroom. They are spartan, to be polite about it. I never spend active time in there. I do have some artwork and various things given to me by friends, but in my own opinion probably the strangest thing in my bedroom is the Swedish flag I have hanging behind my bedpost. This leads me to the question - am I better off keeping the Swedish flag up, or am I better off with nothing at all on that wall?
Michael Vick. Unless you live by yourself under a rock you know that a famous athlete named Michael Vick is facing some time in the pokey for being part of a dogfighting ring. The entire thing is very disturbing to me and I worry that this is going to spiral out of control.
The federal government has proof that he financed and provided facilities where these pitbulls would fight each other to the death, and the losing dogs would be hung/stabbed/sliced/beat to death if they weren't dead already. I think its a fair implication that he attended these fights, but some of the allegations against him made by his "boys" that are singing like canaries to avoid max sentences themselves are affecting what the public think of him unfairly. His "boys" say that he participated in these dog killings himself. There is absolutely NO proof of that besides what these highly suspicious, completely uncredible (if thats a word) "witnesses" are saying. Yet, what do the people believe if you set out a poll? People believe that he killed the dogs himself with his bare hands, or with a chain, or with a bat. You can thank PETA for that, since after hearing these allegations that he personally killed some of these dogs they have launched a full scale assault on the Atlanta Falcons. I fucking HATE that organization, but that topic is for an entire journal entry of its own.
This brings me to a larger point. By no means am I defending Mike Vick - its obvious that he is at least guilty of facilitating this entire thing and will almost certainly be facing jail time on a federal sentence. His football career is over, despite what the Atlanta NAACP thinks - they believe that he should return to the NFL after serving his sentence. They also feel that this is racially motivated, naturally. The very existence of the NAACP relies on the perpetuation of the racial divide, which is a sinister fact.
The larger point is that we cannot trust the legal system in combination with the media. The Duke case made it blatantly obvious that this is true - those kids got completely screwed over by their own school, were castigated, impuned, maligned, and for what? They were innocent and it was proved that the prosecutor was merely pursuing this case, despite any credible evidence, to try to propel him to a re-election. The legal system, the media and Duke University failed spectacularly. Now we are in a position where Michael Vick, the biggest star of the biggest sport in America, is being accused of additional horrendous things by, frankly, a bunch of thugs and the public and the media are lapping it up as if the words came from the lips of God himself. When will they ever learn?
Vick is a son of a bitch for thinking that any of this was okay, and for facilitating this horrendous activity. There is absolutely NO proof that he killed a dog himself. Did he provide the money, the animals, the trafficking and the facilities? It looks that way. Should he go to jail if/when he is found guilty of what he is charged against? Obviously. Should people be calling him a dog murderer? In an oblique sense, yes, but in the manner in which he is being accused? No!
This is exactly what the prosecutors and the media want, and the media is 100% guilty of perpetuating all of this. Because people believe almost anything they see on television, people think that Michael Vick participated in killing 8 dogs. All of this is based on the word of a couple of idiots who actually did a lot of the dirty work themselves and are desperate to lessen their own prison time. This is how the legal system works in America - generally speaking, the people who are most guilty are simply bait used to try to capture a bigger fish. This is incredibly wrong - people in America should be judged solely on their own guilt, based on the facts of the matter. Instead, the media sees itself fit to serve as judge and jury in the court of public opinion regardless of the facts. We live in an incredibly depressing time.
Michael Vick. Unless you live by yourself under a rock you know that a famous athlete named Michael Vick is facing some time in the pokey for being part of a dogfighting ring. The entire thing is very disturbing to me and I worry that this is going to spiral out of control.
The federal government has proof that he financed and provided facilities where these pitbulls would fight each other to the death, and the losing dogs would be hung/stabbed/sliced/beat to death if they weren't dead already. I think its a fair implication that he attended these fights, but some of the allegations against him made by his "boys" that are singing like canaries to avoid max sentences themselves are affecting what the public think of him unfairly. His "boys" say that he participated in these dog killings himself. There is absolutely NO proof of that besides what these highly suspicious, completely uncredible (if thats a word) "witnesses" are saying. Yet, what do the people believe if you set out a poll? People believe that he killed the dogs himself with his bare hands, or with a chain, or with a bat. You can thank PETA for that, since after hearing these allegations that he personally killed some of these dogs they have launched a full scale assault on the Atlanta Falcons. I fucking HATE that organization, but that topic is for an entire journal entry of its own.
This brings me to a larger point. By no means am I defending Mike Vick - its obvious that he is at least guilty of facilitating this entire thing and will almost certainly be facing jail time on a federal sentence. His football career is over, despite what the Atlanta NAACP thinks - they believe that he should return to the NFL after serving his sentence.
They also feel that this is racially motivated, naturally. The very existence of the NAACP relies on the perpetuation of the racial divide, which is a sinister fact.The larger point is that we cannot trust the legal system in combination with the media. The Duke case made it blatantly obvious that this is true - those kids got completely screwed over by their own school, were castigated, impuned, maligned, and for what? They were innocent and it was proved that the prosecutor was merely pursuing this case, despite any credible evidence, to try to propel him to a re-election. The legal system, the media and Duke University failed spectacularly. Now we are in a position where Michael Vick, the biggest star of the biggest sport in America, is being accused of additional horrendous things by, frankly, a bunch of thugs and the public and the media are lapping it up as if the words came from the lips of God himself. When will they ever learn?
Vick is a son of a bitch for thinking that any of this was okay, and for facilitating this horrendous activity. There is absolutely NO proof that he killed a dog himself. Did he provide the money, the animals, the trafficking and the facilities? It looks that way. Should he go to jail if/when he is found guilty of what he is charged against? Obviously. Should people be calling him a dog murderer? In an oblique sense, yes, but in the manner in which he is being accused? No!
This is exactly what the prosecutors and the media want, and the media is 100% guilty of perpetuating all of this. Because people believe almost anything they see on television, people think that Michael Vick participated in killing 8 dogs. All of this is based on the word of a couple of idiots who actually did a lot of the dirty work themselves and are desperate to lessen their own prison time. This is how the legal system works in America - generally speaking, the people who are most guilty are simply bait used to try to capture a bigger fish. This is incredibly wrong - people in America should be judged solely on their own guilt, based on the facts of the matter. Instead, the media sees itself fit to serve as judge and jury in the court of public opinion regardless of the facts. We live in an incredibly depressing time.
paul - 08/26/07 10:06
The money hiding country is switzerland.
The money hiding country is switzerland.
metalpeter - 08/26/07 10:01
Oh what a US flag isn't good enough you have to have a flag of some country where criminals hide there money (I'm joking completely). Seriously though You should leave the flag up. I have no idea why it is over your bed but that is fine. But if you are tired of how it looks get a pole for it and get a few other flags and fly them outside from the porch.
Yeah I'm late have not had the time to read (e:strip) lately. But here is my take on Vick. Down South Dog fighting is huge and is very underground but is a business I guess you would call it. The Government and law enforcement have had enough. Often the way the show people that they are coming after them and tell them to stop is they find someone famous doing something illegal and come after them and make a big public display. In this case it is Vick. They know that like in most gangs, mobs or criminal activities someone will try to get out of jail time and tell the cops everything they need to know. I'm sure the hope is that you can go up the food chain and get someone really big. They do this in drug cases all the time. But that doesn't really work with someone who is Famous. If Vick knew about other dog fighting rings or some other secrets he can't say anything because he is so high profile that he would become a target.
Some people have said race is a factor. It is but not as much as people say. Yes he is black and I'm sure most of his boys are. But the question comes up of why didn't they go after the white guys who do dog fighting. In this case I say cause they are not famous. The news media is entertainment so if a bunch of dog fighting rings get busted in a month or two and everyone is white you won't hear anything about it. That is unless some of those people have a connection to Vick or someone else famous or maybe some other scandle.
Oh what a US flag isn't good enough you have to have a flag of some country where criminals hide there money (I'm joking completely). Seriously though You should leave the flag up. I have no idea why it is over your bed but that is fine. But if you are tired of how it looks get a pole for it and get a few other flags and fly them outside from the porch.
Yeah I'm late have not had the time to read (e:strip) lately. But here is my take on Vick. Down South Dog fighting is huge and is very underground but is a business I guess you would call it. The Government and law enforcement have had enough. Often the way the show people that they are coming after them and tell them to stop is they find someone famous doing something illegal and come after them and make a big public display. In this case it is Vick. They know that like in most gangs, mobs or criminal activities someone will try to get out of jail time and tell the cops everything they need to know. I'm sure the hope is that you can go up the food chain and get someone really big. They do this in drug cases all the time. But that doesn't really work with someone who is Famous. If Vick knew about other dog fighting rings or some other secrets he can't say anything because he is so high profile that he would become a target.
Some people have said race is a factor. It is but not as much as people say. Yes he is black and I'm sure most of his boys are. But the question comes up of why didn't they go after the white guys who do dog fighting. In this case I say cause they are not famous. The news media is entertainment so if a bunch of dog fighting rings get busted in a month or two and everyone is white you won't hear anything about it. That is unless some of those people have a connection to Vick or someone else famous or maybe some other scandle.
lauren - 08/24/07 15:45
Wow, thanks everyone for giving me 15 minutes of fascinating reading. I, Joshua, do not live alone under a rock, however I also don't watch the news so I was unaware of this little blurb that apparently isn't so little. I don't watch sports either, so this guy might as well be some random dude walking down the street for all I care. Either way, I won't comment on that cause I think ya'll have said it all and so moving on. The flag...to me, yells "college student dormroom"!!!!!! Are you indeed a college student? If not, perhaps putting a frame around it would make it less so? anyways, it is a good conversation starter I'm sure.
Wow, thanks everyone for giving me 15 minutes of fascinating reading. I, Joshua, do not live alone under a rock, however I also don't watch the news so I was unaware of this little blurb that apparently isn't so little. I don't watch sports either, so this guy might as well be some random dude walking down the street for all I care. Either way, I won't comment on that cause I think ya'll have said it all and so moving on. The flag...to me, yells "college student dormroom"!!!!!! Are you indeed a college student? If not, perhaps putting a frame around it would make it less so? anyways, it is a good conversation starter I'm sure.
joshua - 08/24/07 14:24
Whoa..... forgive my completely unintentional but horrendous pun... I tried to delete my comment and rewrite it but (e:strip) will not let me (I'm using Firefox, if that matters at all). Right after I submitted it I realized how shitty that was, but I assure you that I wasn't trying to be a cheeky bastard.
Whoa..... forgive my completely unintentional but horrendous pun... I tried to delete my comment and rewrite it but (e:strip) will not let me (I'm using Firefox, if that matters at all). Right after I submitted it I realized how shitty that was, but I assure you that I wasn't trying to be a cheeky bastard.
joshua - 08/24/07 14:22
NEWSFLASH!
:::link:::
This is all I ask for - proof or an admission. Vick admitted to personally participating in killing six to eight dogs along with the co-defendants via drowning or hanging... but not to gambling! He will be getting additional charges slapped on him, if the government feels like it anyway.
Feel free to release the hounds - I'm with you.
NEWSFLASH!
:::link:::
This is all I ask for - proof or an admission. Vick admitted to personally participating in killing six to eight dogs along with the co-defendants via drowning or hanging... but not to gambling! He will be getting additional charges slapped on him, if the government feels like it anyway.
Feel free to release the hounds - I'm with you.
joshua - 08/24/07 14:16
Wow, I can't keep up with you guys today. Thank you for commenting though!
(e:felly) - finally someone addressed my flag! I think really the only anxiety I have about the flag is whether or not the ladies would find it tacky. I know that its tacky but is a decoration like that in a room "alternate birth control?"
Wow, I can't keep up with you guys today. Thank you for commenting though!
(e:felly) - finally someone addressed my flag! I think really the only anxiety I have about the flag is whether or not the ladies would find it tacky. I know that its tacky but is a decoration like that in a room "alternate birth control?"
james - 08/24/07 14:09
I heard the president of the American Humane Society speak in regards to the welfare of the dogs. Those dogs have been trained to kill other dogs and are most likely not safe to have as a pet. The condition makes them safe to other dogs, other animals, and people as well.
If adoption is not an option then the only thing left to do with the dogs is either leave them caged for the rest of their days or euthanize them. Given that option killing the dogs, ironic as it may be, seems like the most humain option.
And (e:Jim) has always been Jim and I have always been James. When he is over for holidays he Jim, I am James, my dad is Jim, and my uncle is James. It gets very confusing.
What you said about Eichman is fascinating, how a human brain is able to shut off all empathy. Eichman did it with people, Vick did it with dogs. What a strange little lump of grey matter.
I heard the president of the American Humane Society speak in regards to the welfare of the dogs. Those dogs have been trained to kill other dogs and are most likely not safe to have as a pet. The condition makes them safe to other dogs, other animals, and people as well.
If adoption is not an option then the only thing left to do with the dogs is either leave them caged for the rest of their days or euthanize them. Given that option killing the dogs, ironic as it may be, seems like the most humain option.
And (e:Jim) has always been Jim and I have always been James. When he is over for holidays he Jim, I am James, my dad is Jim, and my uncle is James. It gets very confusing.
What you said about Eichman is fascinating, how a human brain is able to shut off all empathy. Eichman did it with people, Vick did it with dogs. What a strange little lump of grey matter.
joshua - 08/24/07 13:39
Damn, you guys are fast!
Before I get into it I wanted to let you guys and gals know about what the SPCA are going to do to the 50 or so dogs that they took from Vick's property. If they aren't claimed they will all be euthanized. I'm stultified by that... dogs fought to the death there, were killed by humans there, and now in a fit of tragic irony the dogs they rescued from the property are going to be killed by the rescuers because they are going unclaimed.
(e:janelle) - You're exactly right. Bravo - I can't say anything else. =)
(e:jenks) - I am not convinced either way w/respect to whether or not he personally participated. IMO its definitely plausible but in the end it wouldn't be provable in an adequate way. I haven't drawn any lines outside of the obvious legal lines between indirectly and directly facilitating dog killings. I was fairly explicit in pointing out that nobody actually knows the truth, which of course includes me. The ugly part of all of this is that in a court, there is a presumption of innocence. If it turns out that he in fact did participate in killing the dogs then obviously he will be guilty of additional animal cruelty charges, amongst other moral crimes I think we all agree on. All I want is for people to rely on the facts as they are rather than making an assumption. I will admit though that I have a cynical way of looking at things - its standard practice to sell out your friends when it comes to facing jail time. The point is, we do not know whether or not he participated directly so its completely inappropriate to assume that he did. Which, if I'm reading your response to me correctly, seems like you've assumed that he has. If I'm wrong about that then please correct me.
W/respect to your pitbull stuff - I don't really know what purpose it serves to ban a breed of dog. I don't understand the dynamics of how a pitbull naturally behaves compared to a poodle... some people believe that there is a dangerous distinction and point to the little boy getting sodomized in full view of the neighbors. Alternately I think its wrong to assume that pitbulls are like wild animals and are dangerous for people to keep as pets. As far as I'm concerned this is a private issue. If you want a pitbull then you should be able to have one as long as you are willing to accept any negative consequences.
(e:jim) - W/respect to your first paragragh, I completely agree. However, killing by proxy isn't going to make it possible to tack on extra charges... which is precisely what I'm talking about. Who is guilty of killing someone - the hitman doing the shooting, or the guy that is paying the hitman and made the order? Morally there is no distinction, but legally there is a big distinction, which I'll describe.
W/respect to your second paragraph, I find it completely bizarre. You actually believe that I'm using this post to buttress my political posts? Jesus Christ, I haven't seen anything like that in a loooooong time. All I can say about it is that this is not true - its as simple as that and I'm in all honesty very sorry that you felt that way about my entry. I on occasion stick in a jab here and there, which just about every blogger and "journalist" tend to do at times. Trust me, you'll know when I'm being political! People here get uncomfortable when political views that don't parrot leftie, MoveOn.org, DailyKos liberalism pop up and I accept it with a big ol' grin.
As far as semantics and splittling hairs go, they mean a hell of a lot when you are talking about the legal system. Michael Vick will face *additional* charges if in fact he personally participated in killing the dogs. Now you understand why the semantics matter, although I agree with you that the moral implications of having *any* part of this sad situation are utterly disturbing. Don't worry, he's going to go to jail and he's certainly going to burn in hell, if you believe in such a thing. Both of us can warm our hands over the fire if you like. =P
As for your third paragraph, the way that the media and the public are treating this case is EXACTLY!!!! like the Duke case. Its an obvious parallel. If you disagree, then so be it - I can't help it. I will concede to you that in the Duke case they were guilty of zilch, while Vick is obviously guilty of all sorts of things legal and moral. I understand why it is that you'd say there is no similarity. However, that isn't what I'm addressing. What he may not be guilty of is what I'm talking about, specifically how it relates to what he is being charged with and compared to what he's being charged with in the court of public opinion.
You cite the lack of evidence in the Duke case while neglecting the fact that there is no evidence to suggest he personally participated in the killings. This is where we circle back to the "killing by proxy" argument, which in the legal context doesn't matter a whole lot when it comes to charging somebody with a specific crime in a court... which I have highlighted... and now that I've seen it, so did (e:janelle). (e:janelle) absolutely nailed this point, double bullseye.
(e:jim) we actually agree on this subject, although I think its important to understand and accept (begrudgingly at times) the difference between moral and legal guilt.
As far as I'm concerned he should get a 300-year sentence and a $2m fine to be used to build an animal shelter. If his sentence were based on his immorality then this is what he'd deserve, or worse. Unfortunately we have to work within the confines of our legal system, which is inherently flawed.
(e:james) - I've wanted to ask you guys this ever since you signed on to (e:strip). He is Jim and you are James. Has it always been that way? Does Jim dislike "James" and do you dislike "Jim?" Or does this merely serve to facilitate distinguishing you fellas?
I loved what you had to say. I happen to agree with you but its similarly important to accept the possibility that he maybe wouldn't. At the moment I simply can't see how they'd manage to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he personally participated based on the testimony of fellow crooks, but I've been surprised before.
Its interesting that you mentioned Eichmann - I saw some previously unseen home movies the Nazis made at Hitler's retreat. There is no sound and the videos were being used in combination with this super advanced software that deciphers the German based solely on reading lips. The sky was blue, everyone was well dressed and having a laugh, smoking and drinking. Eichmann was referring to "the project" and how it needed to move faster - of course he was referring to the concentration camps. The complete lack of humanity in the context of this beautiful, clear, sunny summer day, and the casual way in which he was referring to this stuff chilled me to the bone.
Damn, you guys are fast!
Before I get into it I wanted to let you guys and gals know about what the SPCA are going to do to the 50 or so dogs that they took from Vick's property. If they aren't claimed they will all be euthanized. I'm stultified by that... dogs fought to the death there, were killed by humans there, and now in a fit of tragic irony the dogs they rescued from the property are going to be killed by the rescuers because they are going unclaimed.
(e:janelle) - You're exactly right. Bravo - I can't say anything else. =)
(e:jenks) - I am not convinced either way w/respect to whether or not he personally participated. IMO its definitely plausible but in the end it wouldn't be provable in an adequate way. I haven't drawn any lines outside of the obvious legal lines between indirectly and directly facilitating dog killings. I was fairly explicit in pointing out that nobody actually knows the truth, which of course includes me. The ugly part of all of this is that in a court, there is a presumption of innocence. If it turns out that he in fact did participate in killing the dogs then obviously he will be guilty of additional animal cruelty charges, amongst other moral crimes I think we all agree on. All I want is for people to rely on the facts as they are rather than making an assumption. I will admit though that I have a cynical way of looking at things - its standard practice to sell out your friends when it comes to facing jail time. The point is, we do not know whether or not he participated directly so its completely inappropriate to assume that he did. Which, if I'm reading your response to me correctly, seems like you've assumed that he has. If I'm wrong about that then please correct me.
W/respect to your pitbull stuff - I don't really know what purpose it serves to ban a breed of dog. I don't understand the dynamics of how a pitbull naturally behaves compared to a poodle... some people believe that there is a dangerous distinction and point to the little boy getting sodomized in full view of the neighbors. Alternately I think its wrong to assume that pitbulls are like wild animals and are dangerous for people to keep as pets. As far as I'm concerned this is a private issue. If you want a pitbull then you should be able to have one as long as you are willing to accept any negative consequences.
(e:jim) - W/respect to your first paragragh, I completely agree. However, killing by proxy isn't going to make it possible to tack on extra charges... which is precisely what I'm talking about. Who is guilty of killing someone - the hitman doing the shooting, or the guy that is paying the hitman and made the order? Morally there is no distinction, but legally there is a big distinction, which I'll describe.
W/respect to your second paragraph, I find it completely bizarre. You actually believe that I'm using this post to buttress my political posts? Jesus Christ, I haven't seen anything like that in a loooooong time. All I can say about it is that this is not true - its as simple as that and I'm in all honesty very sorry that you felt that way about my entry. I on occasion stick in a jab here and there, which just about every blogger and "journalist" tend to do at times. Trust me, you'll know when I'm being political! People here get uncomfortable when political views that don't parrot leftie, MoveOn.org, DailyKos liberalism pop up and I accept it with a big ol' grin.
As far as semantics and splittling hairs go, they mean a hell of a lot when you are talking about the legal system. Michael Vick will face *additional* charges if in fact he personally participated in killing the dogs. Now you understand why the semantics matter, although I agree with you that the moral implications of having *any* part of this sad situation are utterly disturbing. Don't worry, he's going to go to jail and he's certainly going to burn in hell, if you believe in such a thing. Both of us can warm our hands over the fire if you like. =P
As for your third paragraph, the way that the media and the public are treating this case is EXACTLY!!!! like the Duke case. Its an obvious parallel. If you disagree, then so be it - I can't help it. I will concede to you that in the Duke case they were guilty of zilch, while Vick is obviously guilty of all sorts of things legal and moral. I understand why it is that you'd say there is no similarity. However, that isn't what I'm addressing. What he may not be guilty of is what I'm talking about, specifically how it relates to what he is being charged with and compared to what he's being charged with in the court of public opinion.
You cite the lack of evidence in the Duke case while neglecting the fact that there is no evidence to suggest he personally participated in the killings. This is where we circle back to the "killing by proxy" argument, which in the legal context doesn't matter a whole lot when it comes to charging somebody with a specific crime in a court... which I have highlighted... and now that I've seen it, so did (e:janelle). (e:janelle) absolutely nailed this point, double bullseye.
(e:jim) we actually agree on this subject, although I think its important to understand and accept (begrudgingly at times) the difference between moral and legal guilt.
As far as I'm concerned he should get a 300-year sentence and a $2m fine to be used to build an animal shelter. If his sentence were based on his immorality then this is what he'd deserve, or worse. Unfortunately we have to work within the confines of our legal system, which is inherently flawed.
(e:james) - I've wanted to ask you guys this ever since you signed on to (e:strip). He is Jim and you are James. Has it always been that way? Does Jim dislike "James" and do you dislike "Jim?" Or does this merely serve to facilitate distinguishing you fellas?
I loved what you had to say. I happen to agree with you but its similarly important to accept the possibility that he maybe wouldn't. At the moment I simply can't see how they'd manage to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he personally participated based on the testimony of fellow crooks, but I've been surprised before.
Its interesting that you mentioned Eichmann - I saw some previously unseen home movies the Nazis made at Hitler's retreat. There is no sound and the videos were being used in combination with this super advanced software that deciphers the German based solely on reading lips. The sky was blue, everyone was well dressed and having a laugh, smoking and drinking. Eichmann was referring to "the project" and how it needed to move faster - of course he was referring to the concentration camps. The complete lack of humanity in the context of this beautiful, clear, sunny summer day, and the casual way in which he was referring to this stuff chilled me to the bone.
janelle - 08/24/07 13:18
Thank you, Jason <curtsy>
Thank you, Jason <curtsy>
jason - 08/24/07 12:45
Ah, Janelle, exactly what I was saying. Well done.
Ah, Janelle, exactly what I was saying. Well done.
jason - 08/24/07 12:42
It's very, very simple people. It is a legal argument, and nothing more. There is no reason to look further into why he would plead guilty to only certain aspects of this mess. He is trying to avoid punishment for crimes he technically did not commit.
If he would be punished further for the crimes he is not admitting to, it makes sense for his legal team to try and get him off of those charges. It doesn't mean he is not guilty, ultimately, of their deaths, and it doesn't mean he isn't going to pay the price. It only hsa to do with legal technicalities. The emotional claptrap really is irrelevant.
It's very, very simple people. It is a legal argument, and nothing more. There is no reason to look further into why he would plead guilty to only certain aspects of this mess. He is trying to avoid punishment for crimes he technically did not commit.
If he would be punished further for the crimes he is not admitting to, it makes sense for his legal team to try and get him off of those charges. It doesn't mean he is not guilty, ultimately, of their deaths, and it doesn't mean he isn't going to pay the price. It only hsa to do with legal technicalities. The emotional claptrap really is irrelevant.
fellyconnelly - 08/24/07 12:25
peta sucks, vick sucks.....
keep the swedish flag, but maybe present it in a different manner?
peta sucks, vick sucks.....
keep the swedish flag, but maybe present it in a different manner?
jenks - 08/24/07 12:03
ok, last comment.
This is an older article Josh. But eye-opening.
:::link:::
and did you see this one? now apparently his dad is selling him out. Nice family!!!
:::link:::
ok, last comment.
This is an older article Josh. But eye-opening.
:::link:::
and did you see this one? now apparently his dad is selling him out. Nice family!!!
:::link:::
janelle - 08/24/07 11:15
I've adopted three animals over the years; I'm trying to volunteer at the Buffalo Animal Shelter; and yet I can't stand PETA.
I've adopted three animals over the years; I'm trying to volunteer at the Buffalo Animal Shelter; and yet I can't stand PETA.
jenks - 08/24/07 11:13
the thing that kills me about PETA is that they put on this big 'animal lover' face- but have very strong stances that certain breeds of dogs should be bred out of existence. Just read one article where some PETA lady was all proud of herself for putting down 3 (reportedly calm, gentle, well behaved) dogs in a shelter JUST b/c of their breed (or suspected breed- who knows with shelter dogs)- in order to make room for some nasty little dog that bites its owners etc- just b/c it's a "more desirable" breed. She was like "if I can kill a pit bull to make room for a poodle, I'm doing a good thing." (yes, that's paraphrased.)
And then well intentioned animal lovers just pour money into PETAs coffers b/c they think they're "helping the animals" and don't realize what they're really supporting. arg.
the thing that kills me about PETA is that they put on this big 'animal lover' face- but have very strong stances that certain breeds of dogs should be bred out of existence. Just read one article where some PETA lady was all proud of herself for putting down 3 (reportedly calm, gentle, well behaved) dogs in a shelter JUST b/c of their breed (or suspected breed- who knows with shelter dogs)- in order to make room for some nasty little dog that bites its owners etc- just b/c it's a "more desirable" breed. She was like "if I can kill a pit bull to make room for a poodle, I'm doing a good thing." (yes, that's paraphrased.)
And then well intentioned animal lovers just pour money into PETAs coffers b/c they think they're "helping the animals" and don't realize what they're really supporting. arg.
janelle - 08/24/07 11:09
Murder by proxy is stil murder--yes and no. Criminal law lays fault on the individual who murders by proxy, however it still recognizes the distinction between the individual who gives the order for a killing versus the person who actually does the killing. The media failing to recognize the fine distinctions in criminal law can give the perception that an individual committed an act that in fact they did not. If there is no proof that Vick actually killed a dog himself, but merely oversaw the killings, than he should face the charges related to facilitating the killings. The situation does have a larger societal implication in that it is very important that when society makes accusations that it is accurate in those accusations. Playing loose with words and their definitions can be very damaging to a person's integrity/image (of course in this case, Vick has already lost a great deal of integrity with darn good reason). Remember the public figure called racist when he used the word "niggardly" :::link:::
Murder by proxy is stil murder--yes and no. Criminal law lays fault on the individual who murders by proxy, however it still recognizes the distinction between the individual who gives the order for a killing versus the person who actually does the killing. The media failing to recognize the fine distinctions in criminal law can give the perception that an individual committed an act that in fact they did not. If there is no proof that Vick actually killed a dog himself, but merely oversaw the killings, than he should face the charges related to facilitating the killings. The situation does have a larger societal implication in that it is very important that when society makes accusations that it is accurate in those accusations. Playing loose with words and their definitions can be very damaging to a person's integrity/image (of course in this case, Vick has already lost a great deal of integrity with darn good reason). Remember the public figure called racist when he used the word "niggardly" :::link:::
jenks - 08/24/07 11:00
Josh why do you seem so convinced that he did NOT kill these dogs? I understand we may not have PROOF yet, but the evidence is mounting... Why assume his 'boyz' testimony is false?
I have been living and breathing this michael vick situation for a while now and don't feel like dragging it out on yet another forum, but a few arguments I am sick of:
1: it's "just dogs" so it doesn't matter
2: it's not HIS fault, it's society's fault, b/c he is a poor oppressed black man
3: I don't care what he did, he is THE BEST QB ever and he HAS to be allowed back into the NFL
4: dogfighting is a sport, just like hunting, so what's the big deal?
5: other pro athletes have killed PEOPLE and have gotten to play again, so he should too.
And I'm a big animal person, and I hate PETA too.
Not trying to attack you joshy. Just a touchy subject for me these days. I understand what you're saying and know you're not defending him per se- but am just curious as to why you seem willing to accept that he probably WAS involved in the planning/funding/transporting/arranging/betting- but you draw the line at actually slaughtering the losing dogs.
Josh why do you seem so convinced that he did NOT kill these dogs? I understand we may not have PROOF yet, but the evidence is mounting... Why assume his 'boyz' testimony is false?
I have been living and breathing this michael vick situation for a while now and don't feel like dragging it out on yet another forum, but a few arguments I am sick of:
1: it's "just dogs" so it doesn't matter
2: it's not HIS fault, it's society's fault, b/c he is a poor oppressed black man
3: I don't care what he did, he is THE BEST QB ever and he HAS to be allowed back into the NFL
4: dogfighting is a sport, just like hunting, so what's the big deal?
5: other pro athletes have killed PEOPLE and have gotten to play again, so he should too.
And I'm a big animal person, and I hate PETA too.
Not trying to attack you joshy. Just a touchy subject for me these days. I understand what you're saying and know you're not defending him per se- but am just curious as to why you seem willing to accept that he probably WAS involved in the planning/funding/transporting/arranging/betting- but you draw the line at actually slaughtering the losing dogs.
james - 08/24/07 10:54
PETA does some very shady things, I will grant you that. They are a parasitic organization that leaches off any media event to get a little publicity for themselves (recently they said Michael Moore "was the real Sicko" for being a meat eater and overweight). And media outlets these days are in the entertainment industry. Good journalism exists somewhere in there but you aren't going to find it on a Murdoch publication or televised news stations hungry for dull ratings.
However, I find it difficult to believe that a man who has no moral problem with facilitating dog murder and mutilation has a problem doing the dirty work himself. He is innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if they could objectively find his guilt in this matter. In fact, people would be shocked if he wasn't. The media has a part in this feeling but setting up the facilities for it to happen does not expunge him of any innocence for those crimes. Eichmann isn't innocent of the crimes of Dachau just because he didn't pull a trigger.
PETA does some very shady things, I will grant you that. They are a parasitic organization that leaches off any media event to get a little publicity for themselves (recently they said Michael Moore "was the real Sicko" for being a meat eater and overweight). And media outlets these days are in the entertainment industry. Good journalism exists somewhere in there but you aren't going to find it on a Murdoch publication or televised news stations hungry for dull ratings.
However, I find it difficult to believe that a man who has no moral problem with facilitating dog murder and mutilation has a problem doing the dirty work himself. He is innocent until proven guilty, of course, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if they could objectively find his guilt in this matter. In fact, people would be shocked if he wasn't. The media has a part in this feeling but setting up the facilities for it to happen does not expunge him of any innocence for those crimes. Eichmann isn't innocent of the crimes of Dachau just because he didn't pull a trigger.
jim - 08/24/07 10:48
Killing by proxy is still killing, so what exactly is your point? Is the drug dealer who sits back and tells people how and where to sell drugs, but never touches them himself any less of a drug dealer?
PETA may be using this incident to promote itself, and the NAACP and others, but you are doing the same thing. You are taking this incident and then framing it all in such a way that it buttresses your other political posts. You're taking this crime and turning it into an illuminating incident for larger social issues and since he is guilty of the crime, and of killing animals despite the semantic hairsplitting about what the meaning of 'to kill a dog is', I'm left to wonder what sort of foundation you're building your arguments on.
This is nothing like the Duke case, where there was no evidence. Yes, criminals turn on each other when it comes time to face the penal system, but that can't be used as a sweeping moral indictment for the media and justice system. Don't conflate this crime with that travesty.
Killing by proxy is still killing, so what exactly is your point? Is the drug dealer who sits back and tells people how and where to sell drugs, but never touches them himself any less of a drug dealer?
PETA may be using this incident to promote itself, and the NAACP and others, but you are doing the same thing. You are taking this incident and then framing it all in such a way that it buttresses your other political posts. You're taking this crime and turning it into an illuminating incident for larger social issues and since he is guilty of the crime, and of killing animals despite the semantic hairsplitting about what the meaning of 'to kill a dog is', I'm left to wonder what sort of foundation you're building your arguments on.
This is nothing like the Duke case, where there was no evidence. Yes, criminals turn on each other when it comes time to face the penal system, but that can't be used as a sweeping moral indictment for the media and justice system. Don't conflate this crime with that travesty.
janelle - 08/24/07 10:34
The situation also fits another classic justice systems profile where Vick's case will be publicized to the utmost and he will be punished to the utmost to act as a deterrent to all the other people who are doing dogfighting that the justice system has difficulty catching. They will hope that dogfighters will diminish their activities as a result of this case and those dogfighters will go unpunished. So in essence, Vicks is being severely punished for the crimes of all dogfighters. Make sense?
The situation also fits another classic justice systems profile where Vick's case will be publicized to the utmost and he will be punished to the utmost to act as a deterrent to all the other people who are doing dogfighting that the justice system has difficulty catching. They will hope that dogfighters will diminish their activities as a result of this case and those dogfighters will go unpunished. So in essence, Vicks is being severely punished for the crimes of all dogfighters. Make sense?
mrmike - 08/24/07 10:28
Well said
Well said
Wow... very, very interesting reading... thank you for taking the time to write all this up, (e:joshua)!
I will admit that I wish American Companies would try to get the wages in other countries higher (but as you said that isn't why they are there). I do think that by them going to other countries for either jobs or to make products or componnets or other things that they do undercut American laborers. I do understand why activists don't like that. I even knew someone who (I think only in American factories) tried to get people to start unions or at least see if there was interest. But I also admit that what is our lose is that other countries gain. I saw a news program where they showed some call service jobs in India. The company they showed everyone was trained in English and it was a highly sought after job so for the people there it was great. So as much as I don't like out sourcing or things being made in other countries (yeah I think it hurts the poor and helps the stockholders) it does help the places where these companies use cheaper work then in the us. I just hope that most of the companies do listen to what your company tells them and makes the right choices. I think what might be better for the activist to do is to try and change the laws and the rules for countries where they don't like the standards of workers.
(e:drew) - what I hate about the job (and what forced me to back away for a bit) was being away from home so much. I felt like I couldn't meet anybody new, couldn't hang out with my friends, see my family, felt like I was a stranger in my own home. I really dislike how chaotic our schedule can be - there were weeks where I literally flew in and out of a city only to go to another one, every day, 5 days in a row. Plus, think about this - when you fly all the time, the last thing you want to do when vacation comes around is travel somewhere!
If I had a name for you of a company that is shady, I'd tell you. Most of the companies that have been bad were bad as a result of their own issues, not as a result of the retailer we represent. For the retailers, we are there for exactly that - to find out who is doing things right or wrong and to let our clients know so that they can avoid sourcing there. I have a few stories about some of the bad factories I've been to - but I don't want to make this too long! I'll say this - one of the worst places I've been to was in Missouri - bad apples can be anywhere.
Who has a bad reputation and doesn't deserve it? You'd hate me if I answered that honestly, and a lot of people here wouldn't believe me anyway! Bahhh... hell. The Big Gray Box, from our experience, sources from mostly excellent places. Believe it or not, these multinational retailers not only force jobs overseas but manage to keep many, many small manufacturers in the USA afloat. These places put up with the BS because the business is sometimes 50-100% of their volume in sales - they are very eager to be compliant so if there are any issues they are almost always solved quickly. But, the way this works is that we are assigned facilities to audit by the retailer, on their time schedule. It isn't as if we get a blank slate and a list of factories to choose to audit as our leisure... I kind of wish it were this way so that we could plan our schedule in a more rational way. So, in other words, they choose where we visit, so although our impression of the facilities is generally good, the truth is that we do not go anywhere without them telling us where to go first.
(e:lauren) - I got into this job because one of my best friends' father is the President. He wanted to build an auditor from the ground up so I was the first for our company that wasn't either a lawyer or come from a high-level manufacturing background. He gave me the opportunity so I took it! As for how strongly I identify with the ethos of the social responsibility movement - I'd say we are all very proud and passionate about what we do. It feels good to know that I've helped people that I'll never get to meet (at least not all of them). So from that perspective I'd say that I very strongly identify with the social responsibility aspect of the job - for me its my stronger suit than the H&S stuff anyway. I'm passionate about improving something for somebody out there - by far my favorite thing about the job is being able to be around people and use my people skills. Its interesting having to relate to the janitor all the way up to the owner, and I love making little microrelationships with the workers - it helps me to understand their point of view and also helps them trust me, so that if something really bad is happening behind the scenes they are willing to tell me. If you aren't a people person, super anal with details, knowledgeable about the law, perceptive and flexible you can't do this job, hehe. Plus, I have to admit, I like the fact that its a fairly liberalized industry. Its perfectly okay for me to wear my Birks in my office, or walk around barefoot. I like that I'm not always in an office, although for the past few months I have been. Its nice to be able to see the country not just on the coast but in all the spots in between. I feel like I've gotten Ph.Ds in American Culture and Sociology from my experiences; overall being put in the position my job gave me has made me a better person and has been an amazing proving ground for whatever job I end up taking next.
(e:peter) - whattup man. That is exactly true and you are touching on a point that is a pet peeve of mine with activists, who mean well and I love, but don't understand the context of what they are seeing sometimes. A factory in Bangladesh is going to be worlds different than one in the US. "American" standards are not practical or realistic depending on the country you are in. What we might consider to be a sty, they may consider their best effort. Thats a fact of life when you are buying stuff from a country where employers pays their workers 10 cents an hour.
(e:janelle) - you can see as much as you like, really, but ultimately its up to us. Personally I like hanging out and soaking in the local flavor wherever I am. Sometimes the schedule doesn't permit it and we are constantly driving to different areas that are kind of remote - its not all glamorous! But still though, I've had some interesting experiences and have been to a ton of places that I wouldn't have visited otherwise... so that is another one to chalk up in the "good" column! Some places we know so well that they remember us when we come back - our hotels in LA, certain restaurants, etc. - that is fun stuff.
Activists - love em/hate em is the best way to describe them. We are able to exist because of them, but I find many of them to be too cozy with unions and too political.
As an example, recently Starbucks has taken some stick because some of the baristas want to unionize, which is ludicrous in my eyes, but whatever. In any case, a former barista is suing Starbucks over allegations that they were supressing his attempts to unionize some baristas. One of the organizations supporting him is called the IWW, and one of its members recently stated that corporate social responsibility is "meaningless" if certain objectives can't get completed. What this activist and maaaannnny others don't understand is that its not CSR's job to proselytize on behalf of labor unions - we are there simply to verify that workers are able to freely discuss *the possibility* of unionizing. This is a line that activists are constantly crossing, and monitoring firms can only roll their eyes at these kinds of comments.
I think many activists and NCOs are under the mistaken impression that American corporations should bring American wage and labor standards to foreign countries. I mentioned this to you before Janelle and I think you have a more rational view of it, lol. (e:peter) also touched on an aspect of it in his comment. Companies don't move to a foreign country just to pay the workers the same amount as they were making back in the states... this should be obvious. Where the activists are 100% right, though, is that the retailers should be watching who they source from, and that there *should* be a rigorous ethical standard that should be enforced. There are workers out there that do need some degree of protection from abusive factories and its no laughing matter. Unfortunately we've been to a few but I'm happy to say that its rare that we go to a really awful plant, where they couldn't care less about safety or the rights/wants/needs of their workers. Most standards have very similar principles that they all share - the details are what separate the stricter standards from the weaker.
One fantastic company - Levi-Strauss! Don't ever be afraid of owning their stuff. =) Their CSR program is one of the strictest and most comprehensive out there, and they are mega dedicated. Nice people, too.
Thanks for sharing what you do Josh. It's fascinating. I guess I might fit into the pseudo intellectual crowd in that I like to think about the topic and talk about the topic, but I don't think I'm a complainer and I try not to speak authoritatively on the subject.
I'd like to hear more on your thoughts about activists in the industry-how it directly impacts or frustrates what you do maybe. It seems that the dynamics between the activists, your industry, and the manufacturing/sweatshop industry might be one of those necessary evils in a way where all three need to exist.
I sure think you're lucky in the sense that a lot of business travelers don't get to see much of where they travel; they spend all their time in conference rooms. But it seems you get to see a bit of the countries you visit, yes?
I hate speaking for other people but I'll quickly touch on the "sweetshop" issue. As you said different countries have different rules and laws. What makes something a sweetshop to other people is that the wages and conditions of places people work are substandard to the US. But that could still be true but they are within the law of their country or area. I can remember a piece that some undercover guy wrote about I think it was mexico I can't remember where he investigated working conditions and the general sense that I got was that NIKE i want to say payed people a lot less then in america and the conditions weren't as good, However it was still one of the best places in mexico. I won't get into the fact that in every country there are some places that must break the law and are good enough not to get caught but that is a different discussion. Hey in any event your job doesn't sound at all boaring and also sounds pretty complex to.
I must admit I am quite fascinated with this type of thing. I can't even begin to comprehend how complex and precise this type of job has to be. I think my questions would be, how/why did you get into this line of work and what do you like about it/do you identify with the "social responsibility" aspect of it?
Wow. This is cool. I often skim over the longer posts, but I enjoyed reading this one. I guess I've been in the pseudo-intellectual crowd, even though I don't drink lattes (sipped or otherwise. Anyway, since you offered to answer more questions, I'll ask a couple:
I can see what you like about your job--what do you hate?
Are you allowed to name a buisness that a person of good consience
should absolutely avoid doing business with?
Who has a bad reputation that DOESN'T deserve it?