AfroJedi - 11/13/11 10:33
"we shall never find that lovely land that might have been..."

Almost too poignant for my Sunday morning. :)

YesThatCasey - 12/08/11 04:00
Makes me think of people who use hand sanitizer, but still open doors without latex gloves.

metalpeter - 12/07/11 18:28
Well Said....

puddlediving - 12/07/11 13:09
Lots of things in life involve risk. Stepping outside your door every day could be dangerous. I'm much more likely to die in an automobile collision than I am from any form of disease, but that doesn't keep me off the street. Avoiding all risks in life would make me too paranoid, so I enjoy what I can and try to be responsible with the rest.

tinypliny - 12/07/11 12:40
For all of you who is taking the "moderation is the way to go" view: :::link:::

This is a critical meta-analyses of the latest evidence. There is no reasonable minimum level of exposure to alcohol. Hard data shows exposure-response at even minimal levels of 1 g.

metalpeter - 11/15/11 19:13
This is all pretty interesting stuff.... Some times though one less damaging addiction can replace another or it will.... That is a good thing... But addiction as I'm sure we all know is more then just social or chemical it is also about changing habits... I'm very glad I don't smoke... But if I did I know I couldn't deal with the entire ok I don't have this thing in my hand or mouth... As much as I think rehab will help... I just feel that the person won't stop until they are really ready... Not when they say they are ready.... Back to the habit thing... I know it is just football but after the season is over I don't know what to do with all that time on sunday... Drugs are the worst thing to be addicted to but they aren't the only thing....

tinypliny - 11/15/11 01:27
I have put alcohol into IVs in the ICU while I was interning. However, that is not the first line or even recommended therapy for alcohol withdrawal therapy. Residents who are not clued into evidence-based-medicine will often recommend that course (and interns don't have a choice really). Well-conducted randomized trials on this issue have come up with no evidence for either improved efficacy or a better side-effect profile.

References:
Weinberg JA et. al. Comparison of intravenous ethanol versus diazepam for alcohol withdrawal prophylaxis in the trauma ICU: results of a randomized trial. J Trauma. 2008 Jan;64(1):99-104. :::link:::

tinypliny - 11/15/11 01:18
(e:puddlediving), thanks SO very much for writing your thoughts out in detail. I really appreciate your thorough reply. The insight into what kind of services might help is very useful. I will contact the hotline and initiate a conversation. Thanks once again for your time and information.

puddlediving - 11/15/11 01:06
As ((e:heidi)) pointed out, there is a lot of overlap in the symptoms of mental illness and substance abuse. Symptoms are usually evident as dysfunctional behavior. Sometimes substance abuse starts due to self-medicating for a mental illness.

That being said, I'd like to point out that not everyone who drinks alcohol is addicted to it. And when discussing addiction, please don't confuse physiological addiction with psychological addiction. A pattern of prolonged alcohol abuse leads to a physiological addiction to alcohol. A deep seated need to watch sports 24/7 is not a physiological addiction. Needs therapy, but it isn't physiologically based.

In my opinion, the best course of action for someone with alcohol dependence is rehab. I'm sure you've heard that rehab doesn't work. Rehab can work, but it doesn't always the first time. I think rehab is important because while in rehab, you're taught to recognize your own symptoms and develop alternate coping skills. I've worked with people who have told me that rehab saved their lives. Even though they had to go three times, they are grateful they did. Rehab is a huge reality check. There's an opportunity for learning about yourself while there. The entire focus of the stay is on recovery, both mentally and physically.

The unit next to the one I work in is a rehab center. The residents there are encouraged to not socialize outside of their unit while there. Their recovery is the only priority. Once leaving a rehab like that, you can't put your head in the sand about whether or not your behavior is appropriate. Many of my clients (I work in a homeless shelter) are alcoholics. They see how alcohol impacted their lives. For some, it led to their homelessness or incarceration. But acknowledging their problem let them be open to accepting help. They go to meetings, they go to counseling, they work on developing new coping strategies. (I'm not a fan of the AA model either, but the support network is amazing!)

I'd like to point out that even if someone goes on a bender after rehab, that doesn't mean rehab failed. Consider someone who drinks on a daily, or almost daily basis. They get cleaned up at rehab. They work at making their lives better. Six months later they go on a week long bender. That doesn't mean rehab failed, it just means that 28 days of intense counseling isn't expected to prepare you for every situation you may encounter for the rest of your life. Maybe the person detoxes and realizes the screw up. Now it is 2 years before another relapse...

I used to wonder why some of my clients were proud to say "I've been clean for six weeks." To me, that doesn't seem very long. For them, they hadn't been able to make that statement in over a decade.

I won't even get started on the health implications. Not just to your liver. I'm a child of alcoholics, and my father's stroke was directly influenced by his decades of daily drinking. (did you know the ICU will put alcohol in your IV to prevent withdrawal? who knew?) oops, I said I wasn't going to get started.

Everyone who has a substance abuse problem should get help. Outpatient counseling is an option, but doesn't lead to the focused work of rehab. (would take longer to see results). Also, if mental illness is a problem, the person should see a psychiatrist and counselor ASAP. And by problem, I mean the illness interferes in their ability to get and maintain housing or employment; interferes in the ability to maintain healthy relationships with friends and family; leads to unpredicatabilty of mood... etc. Mental Illness is usually a chemical imbalance in the brain, easily balanced if the right medication(s) is found.

I wish there were less shame in having a mental illness. I think the shame should come in having one and not having it treated. I'd rather be around calm, rational people. I'm speaking from experience here. My roommate has bipolar disorder. We were partners for 10 years, and I was with her pre-diagnosis and after. I guarantee she was a better person post-diagnosis. She'd tell you the same. She went off her meds awhile back, and I could tell when she needed them again. So could she. She's my roommate now, and I'm so glad I don't have to live with instability. (I still remember that "walking on eggshells" feeling. - that's no way to live)

Sorry for being so longwinded, but I guess I see these issues both personally and professionally.

And when it comes to getting help, a good place for anyone in Buffalo to start is by calling Crisis Services at 834-3131. They aren't just a suicide hotline (although they do that too). They can give you information about services available in the area.

tinypliny - 11/15/11 00:06
If she has any resources, any contacts, any pointers, any suggestions, that would be awesome. Thanks!

heidi - 11/15/11 00:05
I have no experience with any related anything in Buffalo. I've asked (e:puddlediving) to join the convo.

tinypliny - 11/15/11 00:00
Another question, any contacts at all in the behavioural therapy unit/de-addiction clinic on North?

heidi - 11/14/11 23:56
No, I don't know anyone who has done SMART but in general cognitive behavioral therapy is a good thing. Self-awareness is a good thing. Some folks need to dry out and have a break from the routines of their daily lives to be able to commit to the necessary changes, or have the support of other people going through that commitment to change (ie. rehab or 90 meetings in 90 days). Doing it alone is generally not recommended, which is why SMART offers daily online meetings as well as in person ones. That support for commitment to change is really important.

tinypliny - 11/14/11 23:45
(e:heidi), do you know anyone who has successfully tried this plan: :::link:::

It's an alternative to the 12 step plan. I was reading some technical white papers about it. It doesn't stress AA meetings and instead relies on workbooks and self-evaluation.

heidi - 11/14/11 23:37
I agree with (e:paul)'s, (e:yesthatcasey)'s or (e:kookcity)'s definitions; it's not about the substance itself. It's first about recognizing the problems your behavior, whether drinking, drugging, gambling, eating, etc., is creating in your life. Then it's about the choices you make with that realization. The problems might be with jobs, family, friends, the law, housing, mobility, or any other major life functionality. This analysis also holds true for mental illness. Each of us who is an addict or mentally ill has the *choice* to change. For addicts, rehab and/or 90 meetings in 90 days is a good place to start. :::link::: For those with mental illnesses, depending on how bad symptoms are at the moment, a trip to the psych ward of a friendly local hospital, or meeting with a psychiatrist (*and* a psychologist or social worker) frequently until symptoms lessen and life can be restructured can be a path out of the darkness.

I'm often uncomfortable with AA (and particularly appreciate feminist critiques such as Many Roads One Journey: Moving Beyond the 12 Steps) but at the same time, I've seen it work for close friends. I'm more comfortable with the wellness recovery model for mentally ill and dual-diagnosed folks (MI+addiction). I believe the way to regain your health is to make big and small choices every day about becoming and staying well, whether that be attending AA meetings, taking psych meds, reducing stress, exercising, eating well, or any of thousands of other things we do to keep balance in our lives. It takes intentionality, HARD work, commitment, strength, friends and family. (The bar exam was nothing in comparison.)

"Hitting bottom" is the term for the point at which an addict realizes s/he has a problem and reaches out for help. When an addict is having trouble realizing the problems s/he is creating, friends and family should be very careful to not enable the addict by shielding them from the consequences of their actions. Al-Anon is for friends & family dealing with an addict :::link:::

The AA first step: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

Peace.

paul - 11/13/11 22:20
Occasional drinking or light drug use can also just elicit stress relieving or euphoric responses. The problem is when people abuse the substance, that is why it is called substance abuse. As was already mentioned people can abuse everything like food.

tinypliny - 11/13/11 22:07
Yes, please add it to the postponed bag. Thanks. :)

YesThatCasey - 11/13/11 21:21
Tiny, you'll have to experience a bit of passive disappointment from me as well, in that case, as making such a strong statement and then deciding against discussing it is a bit of a cop out.

In some cases, drugs, or even non-drug substances, are used as an excuse for behaviors that, while possibly amplified, exist without the drug to begin with.

In other cases, drugs, or even non-drug substances, are a problem for an individual, but those problems do not necessarily extend to the group.

Lastly, the correct usage is obviously of importance, which I'm sure any pharmacist will quickly support.

And the reason I emphasize non-drug substances is because people tend to focus on drugs while ignoring the many other substances that we consume and affect each of us uniquely, simply because of this somewhat arbitrary classification of "drug". Just think of the obesity epidemic in this country, or how the food you consume each day affects your mood. These lines of thought can be extended to activities as well.

In the end, if you just want to "heap insults on people", without providing the reasoning behind them, you're really just being a jerk. (And of course I say that without any personal attack.) I understand being against the degree of acceptance of drug consumption in our culture, and others, but taking a hard-line stance against it can only be done by oversimplifying the argument, which does a disservice to those making the personal decision regarding their use. More importantly, I don't think that message will reach the vast majority of people, which I would imagine is a goal when expressing such an opinion.

Maybe we can add this to the co-op discussion that we will someday have in person.

kookcity2000 - 11/13/11 14:00
its the dose that makes the poison

metalpeter - 11/13/11 12:07
Wish I had time to say more.... The Problem is that Addiction isn't called Addiction until there is a problem.... Say I watch Sports everyday it it is called a hobby an interest... But lets say when there is no sports I can't handle it and I want to take out the aggression on someone and I do.... Well then it is called addiction but I was just as addicted to it..... Bad example but may.... Some people can watch sports and and give the game up no problem and others they have to watch it.... It isn't only drugs people get addicted to...

tinypliny - 11/13/11 11:27
(e:metalpeter), you said everything I would have wanted to say. I hate the drug because there is no point hating the reason or the victims. Drugs are a disease. Reasons and patients are targets of compassion, rehabilitation and re-evaluation of conditions, never blame. All this could be easier if people didn't just try to justify the social acceptance of any sort of drug and argue that moderation is okay. Because sometimes just that first drink is not okay at all if you have all the reasons and all the pressure to just not stop.

metalpeter - 11/13/11 11:09
The Social Aspect is something that I honestly don't understand.... I said this over on facebook and I think I pissed a few people off.... Any one who drinks Beer isn't a rebel they are a follower and fall to pressure.... Here is why no one likes beer the 1st time they try it (it is an acquired taste).... So that means one of two things they keep drinking to fit in or cause it is cool or they think that was a bad beer still fitting in or to Get drunk..... The Social aspect of beer making one less inhibited I get and hanging out watching sports or looking at pretty people and talking or trying to go home with them that I do get....

Now the getting drunk Part is no different then getting high on any drug... Of course everyone gets drunk a bit differently and it isn't the same for everyone... Over time the body does adjust some... This is true of some drugs where you chase the high... Meaning that the 1st high is the best and as your body adjusts taking said drug doesn't get you high anymore it keeps you balanced and able to function.

I don't know a bunch about drugs but I think this happens with Alcohol as well... You see it with Coffee all the time... People can't do anything including think until that caffeine wakes them up... Yes some people aren't morning people so they use the coffee to wake up... Well they get use to that so no coffee no wake up.....

The Point I'm kinda making badly ? Is it isn't the alcohol that causes the problems... It is what ever need isn't being filled that one needs the drugs for and this is any drug... Yes there is a social aspect or a rebelling or doing things cause this is what the person knows thing... But at the end of the day the person for some reason turns to a drug and it doesn't matter what the drug is...

metalpeter - 11/13/11 10:58
What ever drug you put instead of alcohol it all is the same To answer the question posed... That being said Part of the Problem with Alcohol Abuse (not use that is different but maybe in these case they are the same?) is you all ways here about Drugs and Alcohol like it is something else... See that is where the problem starts is people [I should say most] put alcohol in a different class... But it is a drug and is just as damaging as any thing else......

People thinking that Beer or shots is harmless is one of the biggest problems... I think that in other countries where kids have wine are better off cause they get it is ok to have a couple of drinks... It isn't this thing where we are kids who want to party lets get drunk and maybe fuck that hot blonde over there at some college party or maybe high school....

metalpeter - 11/13/11 10:41
I will answer the question in the next Comment:

Alcohol has destroyed many lives that is legit and I think we would all agree on that. In Fact a case could be made and it would be a good one that the drug that does the most amount of damage is Alcohol ..... There are way to many reasons for why it causes so much harm.... I have seen a tiny bit of it my self.... But I don't put all the blame on the drug..... Back to this in a few minutes....

tinypliny - 11/13/11 07:36
@ (e:uncutsaniflush) Wow, that is top of the irony charts. But then their lyrics do signal a ton of resignation in that song. I grew up with an LP record of the Muswell Hillbillies and Lola versus Powerman and the Money-Go-Round, Something Else, The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society and in fact, all the albums till 1974. They were part of mum's extensive and crazy collection.

It was so funny looking back. We had no idea what they were singing and it always sounded as if Davis was singing "Slay the demon alcohol" instead of "Slave to the demon alcohol". I looked at the lyrics for the first time just a couple years back when I re-listened to their entire discography.

(e:metalpeter), The Kinks are the best!!! Every one of their 70s songs hits the spot! :)

(e:YesThatCasey) & (e:metalpeter): Agreed. I know you love a good discussion. But sadly, you will have to face some passive disappointment here. I am not about to defend my views on the subject or even dissect out why I have adopted the blanket view. The drug has caused much agony (and continues to cause pain) in the lives of people that I have come to care about. At many levels, I find resistance and helplessness in dealing with even supposedly casual consumption. I often find myself wondering how lives might have been for families if alcohol had not been a constant and omnipresent influence. When you see one element influence behaviour time and again, and personally witness families just falling apart for no other reason than just alcohol related issues, objectivity is not an option. I am exhausted mentally trying to figure out what I can do. There are more doors of resistance and resignation here that I care to count.

(e:lilho), the role of a teacher is strewn with hard decisions. So is life of friends and families dealing with alcoholism. I am sure you will hear about this soon and very often.

tinypliny - 11/13/11 07:12
If all of you replace the word alcohol with cigarettes or even cocaine, how does it affect your perception of my post?

lilho - 11/12/11 20:44
You are insane. Entitled to your own opinion... But uh just don't be the type who preaches to people when they are trying to enjoy themselves!

YesThatCasey - 11/12/11 19:34
Other than associating it with an evil spirit, what's your argument? I'm not a rabid defender of the consumption of alcohol, but I love a good discussion; and I currently don't agree that taking a contrary position is something that I know, in my heart, to be wrong.

I understand the concern for those livers that reside in us, but that damage occurs with heavy or long-term, consistent consumption, no?

metalpeter - 11/12/11 14:59
The Problem to me with drugs isn't the drug its self it is how it is used....

Say I want to relax and have a good time so I then Have a drink or smoke a Joint or maybe even find someone to do a line of coke off of then that is ok.....

But if when I'm feeling stress and think hey a drink would make this better or any substance for that matter then that is addiction and that is a problem. If the drug is the way to cope you get into trouble very quickly......

metalpeter - 11/12/11 14:56
That being said I'm confused cause I've seen you drink?

metalpeter - 11/12/11 14:55
Don't know their music but love this song......

uncutsaniflush - 11/12/11 12:31
It's one of my favie songs from the Muswell Hillbillies album (which is one of my favie Kinks albums).

In the isn't the world so wonderfully ironic department, in the 1970s I saw the Kinks perform this song live with Ray Davies obviously drunk drinking a beer whilst singing the song and splashing beer on the people in the front as he waved his arms around.

metalpeter - 11/12/11 14:34
Don't know Much of their Music.... But seen them Once they are Pretty good... The Metallica Versions of their Music is better though....HA....Kidding Just heard it first..... They are pretty good.....

metalpeter - 11/12/11 14:32
Sounds good to me....

AfroJedi - 11/11/11 18:52
Holy S#!t.

I adore those lyrics. Soooo topical for my life situation right now..."i will fulfill for you the karmic law.."

Jinkies! :)