metalpeter - 01/17/09 17:25
That was a pretty interesting article, Wish I would have caught this post on the first day it was posted. A lot of people have a lot of great points. (e:theli) the latest point you made about family is very true or atleast it used to be, it was about marring into a certain family. I think anything that I wanted to say has been covered. So I will add this If it was me I would make sure at the least that I got the Beer first. I also think this case shows us how messed up our country is. We are supposed to be the melting pot. In there society it is ok to set up a marriage and this is what he did. He wasn't selling his girl into sex slavery they where not going to give the girl a gang bang and sell the streaming video on the internet. This farther shouldn't be charged with any thing, well he isn't here legally but other then that. If we want to be the melting pot that we claim to be then when different societies have different culture they follow then none of those things should be a crime, or there should be a way that what looks like a crime can be set aside if it isn't really one.

theli - 01/14/09 10:08
To be fair, sometimes the girls are also a commodity in that case. If you can compare these families to nobility, as if it was possible to increase your standing by having your offspring marry the right people...

And I think that is a major element of most societies with arranged marriages too. The offspring are often treated as bartering tokens for the bettering of the family as a whole, or just the father or mother figure, besides just a gain in wealth specifically. There is this strong possibility for a desire for something other than the desires of the one to get married.

So yeah, that debutante nonsense can be equally as bad, if not worse.

jason - 01/14/09 09:16
I wasn't trying to be funny for once! I really don't know exactly how arranged marriages in India work other than property is involved to some extent. I don't assume it has the same shady overtone as this case, but I'd like an Indian perspective.

(e:Lauren), I think this is the distinction between this type of arranged situation and waspy class preservation. I don't believe the women in that situation are treated as part of a financial or property transaction. In other words they are not a commodity. They're just trying to preserve their socioeconomic superiority, and take it from me, it ain't a joy being a man who doesn't measure up to a girl's dad because you don't have the right job or car or club membership.

lauren - 01/14/09 08:35
haha. i have enjoyed your back and forth conversations very much. i certainly could join this one, but I couldn't help but add what I thought of while reading...debutante balls in, gasp, America by, gasp, wealthy (often white), Christian/Jewish/Other "Americans." Women, 15 and up are "presented" as being eligible to date to a bunch of similarly placed socioeconomic men and their families. Now, perhaps I'm stretching, but how different is this from varying types of "arranged" marriages? Perhaps they aren't trading Coronas, but I think they are certainly related.

tinypliny - 01/13/09 19:59
OMG. I have to stop but I can't!!!!!

You are right - not all of them care about you, but if you have an ounce of Indian blood running through your veins, you will feel obliged to interfere at the smallest and the most trivial opportunity that presents itself. LOL. We are an AWFULLY nose-pokey-where-its-totally-not-wanted lot and we actually revel in all this nose-pokey crazy behaviour. If I had to describe any Indian with three words, I would pick: a)interfering b)snobbish c)gregarious. Hahaha

theli - 01/13/09 19:46
That reminds me of ethnic communities.

I'm not involved in my own, but it's pretty much the case that everybody within that community knows a lot about everybody else. Pretty much how you describe.

Again though, exclusion is essentially what that connectedness is based on. That kind of connectedness is in no way present with people outside of that community.

You may gain friends outside of the community, and learn about their families and acquaintances. But no one who you are connected to in that community will care anywhere near as much about those friends unless you go about extolling their virtues until you convert them over.

tinypliny - 01/13/09 19:39
That got me thinking about the specifics of who qualifies as a neighbour and who qualifies as your society back home. Let's see. All relatives, all in-laws (hereby caled etc.), everyone who lives at least 3-4 blocks up and down your street, their etc., everyone you meet at the weekly farmer's market, their etc., everyone you meet shopping for daily grocery, their etc., everyone who meet at the parent-teacher's meeting, your workplace, your spouse's workplace, all their etc, your classmates' families and etc. .. I can't possibly finish this list but I can tell you, there is no end of people in it! And imagine everyone knows your name and what you are doing and pretty much everything that matters about your affairs!! Nothing really can be a secret!

I have often wondered what brings me back to (e:strip) again and again. Why am I even interested in all of you and the conclusion is very interesting. All of you remind me of my extended neighbourhood family from back home. I wouldn't say this of just any site. The fact that I know all of you personally to some extent factors into it.

Ofcourse, as you have probably noticed, not all of us connect evenly - but that is true of any neighbourhood and any society. To put in some genetic slang here, mating is never non-random - else we wouldn't have lost the variation that exists in Africa. ;-)

theli - 01/13/09 18:28
(Well, it certainly took me aback. :p)

That is something that we've lost, a sense of connectedness.

But either you keep your world small, limited to maybe under a thousand people such as in a secluded village or otherwise rural area. Or, you regiment it in a manner where you very explicitly define who is part of your "society" and who is not.

No group, no family, can survive the removal of all exclusion.

I can absolutely see people within a certain social strata living the way you describe. But what of those that aren't in that strata?

I really think that our public isolation is a direct result of attempting to include as many people, at least as far as a common set of guidelines and expectations.

Because of this breakdown of division, people have gotten nervous. So then they learn, or teach others (such as their children), to fear unknown people in general.

And in some sense, that really is necessary. But it has almost always gone too far.

But to connect from person to person without all pretense of exclusion...that's actually a difficult thing to do. It requires a certain level of "self-actualization", maybe.

tinypliny - 01/13/09 18:18
LOL @Jason

jason - 01/13/09 18:18
I wonder how different this arrangement for some beer and cash is from an Indian arranged marriage.

tinypliny - 01/13/09 18:18
That was not a criticism. :)

tinypliny - 01/13/09 18:15
And the fabric of society itself is completely different. The "society" is like a giant world-wide-web there. I still find it very hard to accept that here my neighbours don't care about me, or sometimes, know me even. Think of a society as an extended (sometimes well-meaning, but mostly annoyingly familiar) family extension. You don't need to date to meet people. You just do! :)
Gaaah. I know its tough to explain, because I am still not sure how it works and works so well.

The three attributes you have mentioned are very unfortunate and point to a sad state of affairs, but you don't necessarily have to be any of the three (whether you are a male or a female) to enter into an arranged marriage. The "arrangement" is not all done by foreign parties. Part of the arrangement is done by the people marrying each other. The word "arrangement" is not equivalent to "use of force"!!

theli - 01/13/09 18:12
Oof, that's some harsh criticism there. :}

You're right. I guess I might just trust computers more than my parents, and parents in general. :p

And I see it as a tool. There's no one there making decisions for me.

Although even that's not quite true. The elements of a dating site do have an affect on who you meet and how you meet them. But these at least appear to be elements without agency, even if that's probably not true. Societal assumptions have manifested themselves in all dating sites to some degree without exception. But maybe that's just unavoidable.

I think trying to date without the help of that tool will give me a different experience, which is why I am currently attempting to do so. But I don't see anything inherently bad about using whatever you have available to you.

If those who seek arranged marriages really see their parents as just something like a tool, then alright. But somehow I don't think that's quite the case for most. :}

tinypliny - 01/13/09 18:03
Hmmm.. Let me put it this way. Arranged marriages to Indians are say, like online dating sites. Think about it. Aren't you asking the online dating site to "please help you find your mate?"

theli - 01/13/09 17:55

• nods*

Yeah, it can be applied to both genders. Just because you are a man, that does not mean that you are strong willed. And vice versa.

People in general need to be given the opportunity, and capability, to direct their own lives. It is when concepts and states such as submissiveness, ignorance, and helplessness are sometimes celebrated that I get nervous.

In the society I've grown up in, all three seem to be celebrated in women from time to time. And that's hardly ever the case for men. (It's usually ignorance for that gender.) So I've become a bit sensitive to that in particular.

Not all arranged marriages may involve expressed submissive. But the very concept suggests it. "Please help me find my mate." Meh.

tinypliny - 01/13/09 17:47
I do come from a society that believes in marriage, heart and soul. I have my own reservations about the institution as a whole (for reasons that are not relevant here).

Though we (as in a society that attests and practices arranged marriages) believe and celebrate marriages, I would like to point out that we don't discriminate between arranged and non-arranged marriages. The end outcome is important for us. The family unit that results from unions is probably the most revered back home.

Its somewhat hard to explain for me, and I am not going to try, but believe me, even with the existence of arranged marriages, there is a TON of choice.

I think its possible that not every marriage and family unit is successful - but attributing this to arranged marriages alone might be a flawed generalization. I have personally seen both arranged and non-arranged marriages fail in my immediate family. I have also seen a HUGE number of success stories, so I wouldn't be quick to point fingers at arranged marriages yet.

Not everyone is happy with their marriages. This is true for any marriage regardless of what kind it is.

Also, what makes you think women alone suffer from arranged marriages? Marriage is not just an institution in a patriarchal society. There are matriarchal communities that also value this institution. The roles are so reversed, you'd be surprised. :)

theli - 01/13/09 17:39
Dating certainly requires a hardy spirit. Heh

I don't deny that there are faults in American and/or western society. In fact, we may have a greater variety, if not severity, than most others. It would probably be impossible to resolve every single one.

But... I would personally prefer that people be lost than to be guided by lousy...guidelines.

Everybody seems to be so scared that they might not know what to do with their lives... But, why?

Why is that so bad?

janelle - 01/13/09 17:32
You're right that societal pressures are down right insidious sometimes. The whole dating scene that we have puts pressure on people too. I've experienced the fun of that pressure.

Not accepting the dating culture here can leave you feeling socially isolated.

I think it's great that you care about this issue. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the concept of arranged marriages as most people practice it, but I want to be careful to take the plank out of my eye before looking at the speck in someone elses.

theli - 01/13/09 17:26
To that I can only counter that societal pressures are downright insidious, sometimes.

If you do not accept this tradition as something good and right, will you be ostracized?

If you do not appear to want your life to be planned to you, will others judge you poorly?

How could it not be the case in cultures where these practices are celebrated that a few are pressured to "learn to love" their fate as their society expects?

A thousand women can tell me that this is something they wanted. That this was right to them. And I would believe that this might be true for most of them. But I simply can't believe that this could possibly be the case for every single one, regardless of how kind and accepting the societies they come from might appear.

And I don't believe that just because I am a man that I cannot be, reasonably, concerned about this.

tinypliny - 01/13/09 17:23
Not all arranged marriages are about beer and money, you know? ;-)

Also, how do you know they restrict choices? Any personal experiences with any? :)

janelle - 01/13/09 17:18
I think arranged marriage probably greatly varies from society to society making it difficult to all out judge the practice as a whole and decisively condemn as an inferior practice.

Arranged marriages that force individuals unwilling or unable to consent, I would agree are problematic and not worth it.

Arranged marriages in which people agree to participate in a formalized process that establishes clear parameters on who they're looking for and who want parental input and guidance ... well, that hardly sounds inferior.

theli - 01/13/09 17:00
I can understand that. But I always have difficulty accepting societal standards that seem to unnecessarily restrict one's choices. And this has been around for a while, but just because it's traditional doesn't make it right.

Is the security and comfort that people find in this worth the abuses that it is sometimes, however frequently, put to?

My instincts say no.

I would compare it to Monarchy, and royalty in general. It can be grand and wonderful and noble. And it has some advantages. But is it something that should persist in perpetuity?

janelle - 01/13/09 16:51
Arranged marriages are hardly a cultural quirk given the number of societies that still practice it. While this particular incident was clearly an illegal situation and nasty situation and probably not an isolated incident, I have a couple of friends from college (some from India and some from conservative Christian families) who participated in some form of arranged marriage and all seemed to go well.

For every bad story of arranged marriages, I'm sure that people from societies that practice it can provide us with examples of love marriages and dating gone awry.

Trying to find a life partner can be really tricky, I think, and if people want to do it through arranged marriages, so be it.

jason - 01/08/09 13:04
The ins and outs of the wage gap are interesting. I think we're getting better. I'm not going to say it doesn't exist any more than I would say racism or anti-semitism don't exist.

theli - 01/08/09 11:27
Oh, I know. And I don't mean to suggest that even most of it is in any way invalid. But there are a few things. Hence the words "at least some".

And in the worst situations/places/societies, that result in what you describe, even boys will sometimes also get hit with some rough shit. Human rights abuses are not limited to one gender. But, yes, it is absolutely more frequent with women.

james - 01/08/09 11:26
I am confused about your response Hodown. What is it that you are differing with? The things you mention in your response are all real and often ignored problems that need solving. But I am not seeing the connection to Ada Day.

hodown - 01/08/09 11:21
Eh I beg to differ, as a woman, that a lot of it is exaggerated. Trust me we live in a worl where girls are sold off at age 6 to men in their 50s and genital mutilation is still acceptable. And in America we still make less than our male counterparts for doing the same work.

• cringes waiting for an (e:Jason)/(e:Josh) response*

theli - 01/07/09 10:49
Mirrormask equated to lowly RomComs?

Blasphemy!

In all seriousness, yeah... A single viewing is not going to do much harm. Though it would be nice if more people recognized them for the, usually, unrealistic fantasy that they tend to be.

tinypliny - 01/06/09 19:56
What does that say about people who liked Grindhouse Planet Terror in addition to say... Ten Things I Hate about You, MirrorMask and Enchanted?


I think romcoms are like chewing gum. YOu enjoy them, they keep your breath fresh and then you throw them away. You don't refrigerate them and chew them again and again! Anyone who does that is bound to not be so "normal" or fit the definition of the "romcom genre enthusiast". :)

- a romcom, 20s murder mystery, bruce willis action, rowan atkinson, wonderland art and zombie movie genre enthusiast.

theli - 01/03/09 20:18
Taking Heads - "Once in a Lifetime" from 1980.

I've studied a bit, but not really.

tinypliny - 01/03/09 20:00
What is that song? Sounds familiar.

That was a crazy video!

Oh and do you know Japanese?!!

theli - 12/25/08 12:38
Like I said, it's been good to me.

I just still notice a stigma because of the "introductions" people tend to make when they first join online dating sites...

"I don't know why I'm here, but I'll just give it a shot."

"A friend put me up to this."

"I don't expect to meet anyone worthwhile."

It really does seem to be a lot better in bigger cities though, yeah. I notice a much better attitude from people joining from places like Toronto.

ladycroft - 12/25/08 10:24
Ultimately it's not the venue but the fact that alcohol simply lowers your inhibitions, making it 'easier' for some folks to engage in conversation etc. But...trying new activities, or joining groups for activities you really like, is one way of meeting someone who at least has a common interest to start, making it 'easier' to engage in conversation.

Hey - there's also speed dating where you get the best of both worlds in terms of 'online' and 'real world'. It could be worth a shot!

hodown - 12/25/08 08:42
Online dating is big in NYC. A ton of my friends met their BFs online- I don't think it really hold a stigma anymore- at least in large cities.

metalpeter - 12/24/08 20:21
I read a study once and sorry I don't have the percentage but it was a high Majority of people if they walk into a big room where they don't know anyone they will sit next to someone that they don't like before they sit next to someone they don't know. I don't know all the variables but the general idea is the same, with someone you don't like you know what you are getting and how to deal with it, but the person you don't know there is risk and what if they keep asking stupid questions or the sleep and nod over onto your shoulder.

I think one of the reasons bars are so popular is for various reasons (like going for the music). But in a bar you don't have to talk to anyone but there are still lots of people there so you don't feel alone. Plus when you drink it does loosen you up. See most people don't do or say what they really feel. For example your boss is an asshole so you want to say "fuck you, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about you Prick" Then continue on why that person is an asshole. But you don't say that now depending on what kind of substance you have in you and you see that person at a bar and they act the same way then you tell them what you think of them really. I think there are a lot of girls who want to make out with guys and take them home and have fun and that is what they really want, or maybe what they want is the attention. But see during the day the put their guard up, hey you can't grab that boy by the tie and have sex as you make copies even though you are thinking about it (sounds like an axe ad doesn't it), you can't be the office slut besides you have a lot of work to do. But once you are out of the office you need something to help be who you think you want to be.

Would it be better to not use drugs to make you who you think you want to be, of course it would be but often most people can't do that. But see the other factor is often people are taught that something is wrong, so when they try to do what they want to do those two things conflict. But see if you are drinking then see it wasn't you who did it, the alcohol did it, and then that person has an excuse and the conflict is gone.


I will admit at (e:strip) parties I am pretty silent. But there is this other side at work and sports events where I be an asshole, hopefully in a fun way and really loud sometimes (I still work, or at least I think I do). I think that has a lot to do with the inviroment you are in. When at a sports event you cheer, at a concert you might mosh and sing along, but when the radio comes on if you sing along at work, you might be in trouble. I don't know what side of me would win out if someone was pushing me.

I have to give people credit that meet people online and have it work out. It is tough because just because you have some interests doesn't mean you will Jive, or get along.

In terms of Hobbies you should do Hobbies you like, and not just do them to find someone. If that is the reason you are doing it you are wasting your time, now maybe the new hobby will be something you like and so it won't be AKA "don't get a dog to meet a girl at a dog park, what would you do with the dog, hey maybe walk your friends dog once a week and explain you are doing it to help your buddy if anyone talks to you".

Back to the online thing kinda. When I first joined (e:strip) there where people that I talked to online, and one person (won't say who) I really wanted to meet, if people reading know cool, if not not. But there seemed to be a lot of cool people. See one thing that I have all ways had trouble with is being at like a party and not really knowing anyone. So I would get invited to parties and would plan on going and then not wind up going. What I figured out later was that me passing out or feeling is, was from the stress that I didn't even know I had about meeting people I didn't know in person, so I get that meeting people in person is tough, just like how I never meet anyone in a bar.

theli - 12/24/08 19:27

• nods*

Really just depends on how you look at it. You can't really develop an honest opinion on someone unless you at least try to get to know them.

So to save time you clump them under some basic classifications. If they tend to do this, then they're inferior. If they don't, they're superior. Or the other way around.

It is only for our convenience that we let ourselves assume that we actually know enough to cast any kind of immediate judgement.

Perhaps its better to just assume one thing or another about everyone? Either almost everyone has value. Or almost no one does. I think an assumption along those lines might just be a little more true.

I've just found myself in a bit of a pessimistic mood recently.

heidi - 12/24/08 17:46
(e:theli) said "A lot of us really are dull, uninspiring, and unattractive. "

I think almost all of us are interesting and attractive in our own way. (Okay, you got me on the uninspiring.) It may take a bit of time to figure out how or why a particular person is interesting or attractive but everyone's got some kind of story, some reason that their lives are the way they are, obstacles they've overcome, something that makes them worth knowing.

tinypliny - 12/24/08 15:55
Good debate. We should start some more discussions just for the heck of it. ;-)

I am not sure why you say comparing dating to poker is terrible. Because that's exactly what it is! :) When you say many of us are dull etc. do you include yourself? What makes you think many of us are dull? What makes you think you are uninteresting?

I think social life is a pretense. We are a social as a species because we are excellent and talented in the art of pretension. When we say that someone is "better" or more interesting, more often than not, that person is better at pretension and oozes confidence practicing it. Maybe this person actually thinks you are better, secretly.

As Einstein once said in a completely different context, it's all relative!

Heh, ever wondered why I am arguing all of this anyway? Because I am good at pretending that this topic is all about a healthy debate. But really, I may be thinking about my life and all this debate might be an extension of an internal justification about ditching some "friends" for the very reasons I wrote about, in the not too distant past.

You can't really argue that the society as a whole is uptight. By doing this, you are foregoing your own independence and equating your mind to the cytoplasmic unknown mass of uptightness voluntarily. We don't need a social change to happen because really it doesn't matter. We need an individual change to happen - in each one of us who thinks they can't do what they want to do because an invisible uptight hand is holding them back.

Most of social behaviour is linked to reproduction. Yes, this is how we have evolved and survived. There is no question about it. But its not about survival anymore. We have gone beyond the need to survive, we have dissociated the need to reproduce from the pleasure that comes from it. We ARE aspiring for more already! The idea is to aspire for even more at nailing the most efficient way to have the cake and eat it too!

As a wildly tangential thought all this reminds me of the movie "Groundhog day". LOL

theli - 12/24/08 14:58
Well, to continue the statistical analysis... If you play a lot of hands, you're more likely to win big on at least one. :}

Assuming you continue to have the resources to keep on playing of course...

(Why does it seem so apt and terrible to compare the dating game to poker? Ack.)


You know... A lot of us really are dull, uninspiring, and unattractive. (At least compared to others. There's almost always someone better at something/anything.) But we do our best.

Bad experiences... well, we've all had some kinds of bad experiences, right? Unfortunately, not all of us have something so specific to point a finger at... :/ And, again, we just do our best in spite of it... following whatever guidelines we deem best for ourselves.

I have not had your experiences. Therefore, I have not made your determinations, or otherwise see such determinations as blatantly obvious.


As a final thought... (Ugh, damn you springer...)

People are social for a morass of reasons. We don't want to be alone. We want to meet people that we can build a better life with, sure. But we also want to meet people just to have fun with. And there's nothing wrong with that. (Assuming ethical behaviour, yadda yadda) And interest in one does not automatically make one unfit for the other.

And, for better or worse, drink has a hand in this. Even beyond the supposed "loosening" properties it might have chemically... there is this ridiculous placebo effect. We've become so uptight in our society, that many of us need an excuse to just do what we actually want to do. It's amazing. And, yes, unnecessary. But social change doesn't happen overnight.


(Sidenote: I was listening to this one interview with scifi author Richard Morgan... One note he made...how astonished he was when he realized how much of social behaviour is actually based on wanting to get laid... I cannot disagree with this assessment. And I think it should be faced squarely head on. This is human behaviour. It's what defines us. We can aspire to more. But we should not deny it.)

tinypliny - 12/24/08 13:23
You have very valid points. To preface what I am going to say, I have a very big and brutal axe to grind against drinking and you can't won't find me supporting it or anything/anyone associated with it anytime.

If people only "loosen up" when they are drunk, then I am sorry, it says a lot of about how dull, uninspiring and unattractive they might be (and generally are :/) in everyday life. I will be honest and admit that I am heartless when it comes to ditching "friends" who have used this excuse more than a couple times. I used to think that it was okay, but time and again I have seen my quality of life come drastically down when I continue with disastrous drunken associations. I am not willing to waste any more of my life when I have so little of it left.

(e:Vincent) mentioned marrying a woman of his dreams. The key word here is "marrying". Though I don't support the concept of "marriage" in general, it has definitely come to mean a long time everyday consistent dedicated for-better-or-for-worse committment not a one-night "loosened up" stand - in every culture possible.

You may argue that first appearances are always deceptive, and they often are, wherever you meet people - at a bar or at a yoga class. But drinking heightens deceptions consistently. In a geeky way, you are statistically lessening your chances of meeting genuinely consistent people at a bar. Why would you want to play a hand when you know perfectly well that your chances of "winning" are less than usual?

Another point you make are about Hobbies and I agree. You are guaranteed disinterest in the shortest time possible if they are pursued for the sole reason of meeting a mate. Consciously picking something that you have really wanted to do (or need to do) - and keeping the mate search in the subconscious is a tactic that works. If you do yoga, you do it for your body not primary to stare at your yoga-mate's arse - though that is a very pleasant bonus. :D

theli - 12/24/08 11:02
Nice!

drew - 12/24/08 11:01
I met my wonderful wife online.