Re: (e:vincent) ...
Social anxiety is a bitch. Yeah.
I meet women...through online dating sites. There. I said it.
I find that those sites get just as bad a rep as bars do when considered for the purposes of meeting people.
So it is said that you should instead go about the task of meeting people while in the pursuit of other hobbies and learning experiences.
So, what if you go ahead take up a couple such hobbies, making your best effort to be social. But then come up with nothing. What do you do now?
Do you just stick with whatever hobbies you liked and just not worry about it? Do you move to other hobbies and activities, and drop the ones you were doing because there's just not enough time?
There is a reason people go to bars and clubs, and its not just to get drunk. Drink makes a baseline excuse for an excursion among the company of strangers. There is the potential there for meeting lots of different people very quickly.
That's not to say that drink is a vital component of all social activities. In fact, apparently AA actually makes for a decent place to meet people. (Or so I've heard.) People just need an excuse to get together. And that's all the nightlife is.
I'm not saying that other activities, or just an attempt at being friendly or social during the day, would make a lousy way to meet people. But I also don't think that the nightlife is just a meaningless self-destructive spiral. There is opportunity everywhere.
As for me... I'm pretty much giving those online sites a break. Yeah, it has been good to me... But I'm tired of being incapable of meeting new people in person. I feel the need to move past that and (at least try to) learn a different way.
Like I said, it's been good to me.
I just still notice a stigma because of the "introductions" people tend to make when they first join online dating sites...
"I don't know why I'm here, but I'll just give it a shot."
"A friend put me up to this."
"I don't expect to meet anyone worthwhile."
It really does seem to be a lot better in bigger cities though, yeah. I notice a much better attitude from people joining from places like Toronto.
Ultimately it's not the venue but the fact that alcohol simply lowers your inhibitions, making it 'easier' for some folks to engage in conversation etc. But...trying new activities, or joining groups for activities you really like, is one way of meeting someone who at least has a common interest to start, making it 'easier' to engage in conversation.
Hey - there's also speed dating where you get the best of both worlds in terms of 'online' and 'real world'. It could be worth a shot!
Online dating is big in NYC. A ton of my friends met their BFs online- I don't think it really hold a stigma anymore- at least in large cities.
I read a study once and sorry I don't have the percentage but it was a high Majority of people if they walk into a big room where they don't know anyone they will sit next to someone that they don't like before they sit next to someone they don't know. I don't know all the variables but the general idea is the same, with someone you don't like you know what you are getting and how to deal with it, but the person you don't know there is risk and what if they keep asking stupid questions or the sleep and nod over onto your shoulder.
I think one of the reasons bars are so popular is for various reasons (like going for the music). But in a bar you don't have to talk to anyone but there are still lots of people there so you don't feel alone. Plus when you drink it does loosen you up. See most people don't do or say what they really feel. For example your boss is an asshole so you want to say "fuck you, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about you Prick" Then continue on why that person is an asshole. But you don't say that now depending on what kind of substance you have in you and you see that person at a bar and they act the same way then you tell them what you think of them really. I think there are a lot of girls who want to make out with guys and take them home and have fun and that is what they really want, or maybe what they want is the attention. But see during the day the put their guard up, hey you can't grab that boy by the tie and have sex as you make copies even though you are thinking about it (sounds like an axe ad doesn't it), you can't be the office slut besides you have a lot of work to do. But once you are out of the office you need something to help be who you think you want to be.
Would it be better to not use drugs to make you who you think you want to be, of course it would be but often most people can't do that. But see the other factor is often people are taught that something is wrong, so when they try to do what they want to do those two things conflict. But see if you are drinking then see it wasn't you who did it, the alcohol did it, and then that person has an excuse and the conflict is gone.
I will admit at (e:strip) parties I am pretty silent. But there is this other side at work and sports events where I be an asshole, hopefully in a fun way and really loud sometimes (I still work, or at least I think I do). I think that has a lot to do with the inviroment you are in. When at a sports event you cheer, at a concert you might mosh and sing along, but when the radio comes on if you sing along at work, you might be in trouble. I don't know what side of me would win out if someone was pushing me.
I have to give people credit that meet people online and have it work out. It is tough because just because you have some interests doesn't mean you will Jive, or get along.
In terms of Hobbies you should do Hobbies you like, and not just do them to find someone. If that is the reason you are doing it you are wasting your time, now maybe the new hobby will be something you like and so it won't be AKA "don't get a dog to meet a girl at a dog park, what would you do with the dog, hey maybe walk your friends dog once a week and explain you are doing it to help your buddy if anyone talks to you".
Back to the online thing kinda. When I first joined (e:strip) there where people that I talked to online, and one person (won't say who) I really wanted to meet, if people reading know cool, if not not. But there seemed to be a lot of cool people. See one thing that I have all ways had trouble with is being at like a party and not really knowing anyone. So I would get invited to parties and would plan on going and then not wind up going. What I figured out later was that me passing out or feeling is, was from the stress that I didn't even know I had about meeting people I didn't know in person, so I get that meeting people in person is tough, just like how I never meet anyone in a bar.
Really just depends on how you look at it. You can't really develop an honest opinion on someone unless you at least try to get to know them.
So to save time you clump them under some basic classifications. If they tend to do this, then they're inferior. If they don't, they're superior. Or the other way around.
It is only for our convenience that we let ourselves assume that we actually know enough to cast any kind of immediate judgement.
Perhaps its better to just assume one thing or another about everyone? Either almost everyone has value. Or almost no one does. I think an assumption along those lines might just be a little more true.
I've just found myself in a bit of a pessimistic mood recently.
(e:theli) said "A lot of us really are dull, uninspiring, and unattractive. "
I think almost all of us are interesting and attractive in our own way. (Okay, you got me on the uninspiring.) It may take a bit of time to figure out how or why a particular person is interesting or attractive but everyone's got some kind of story, some reason that their lives are the way they are, obstacles they've overcome, something that makes them worth knowing.
Good debate. We should start some more discussions just for the heck of it. ;-)
I am not sure why you say comparing dating to poker is terrible. Because that's exactly what it is! :) When you say many of us are dull etc. do you include yourself? What makes you think many of us are dull? What makes you think you are uninteresting?
I think social life is a pretense. We are a social as a species because we are excellent and talented in the art of pretension. When we say that someone is "better" or more interesting, more often than not, that person is better at pretension and oozes confidence practicing it. Maybe this person actually thinks you are better, secretly.
As Einstein once said in a completely different context, it's all relative!
Heh, ever wondered why I am arguing all of this anyway? Because I am good at pretending that this topic is all about a healthy debate. But really, I may be thinking about my life and all this debate might be an extension of an internal justification about ditching some "friends" for the very reasons I wrote about, in the not too distant past.
You can't really argue that the society as a whole is uptight. By doing this, you are foregoing your own independence and equating your mind to the cytoplasmic unknown mass of uptightness voluntarily. We don't need a social change to happen because really it doesn't matter. We need an individual change to happen - in each one of us who thinks they can't do what they want to do because an invisible uptight hand is holding them back.
Most of social behaviour is linked to reproduction. Yes, this is how we have evolved and survived. There is no question about it. But its not about survival anymore. We have gone beyond the need to survive, we have dissociated the need to reproduce from the pleasure that comes from it. We ARE aspiring for more already! The idea is to aspire for even more at nailing the most efficient way to have the cake and eat it too!
As a wildly tangential thought all this reminds me of the movie "Groundhog day". LOL
Well, to continue the statistical analysis... If you play a lot of hands, you're more likely to win big on at least one. :}
Assuming you continue to have the resources to keep on playing of course...
(Why does it seem so apt and terrible to compare the dating game to poker? Ack.)
You know... A lot of us really are dull, uninspiring, and unattractive. (At least compared to others. There's almost always someone better at something/anything.) But we do our best.
Bad experiences... well, we've all had some kinds of bad experiences, right? Unfortunately, not all of us have something so specific to point a finger at... :/ And, again, we just do our best in spite of it... following whatever guidelines we deem best for ourselves.
I have not had your experiences. Therefore, I have not made your determinations, or otherwise see such determinations as blatantly obvious.
As a final thought... (Ugh, damn you springer...)
People are social for a morass of reasons. We don't want to be alone. We want to meet people that we can build a better life with, sure. But we also want to meet people just to have fun with. And there's nothing wrong with that. (Assuming ethical behaviour, yadda yadda) And interest in one does not automatically make one unfit for the other.
And, for better or worse, drink has a hand in this. Even beyond the supposed "loosening" properties it might have chemically... there is this ridiculous placebo effect. We've become so uptight in our society, that many of us need an excuse to just do what we actually want to do. It's amazing. And, yes, unnecessary. But social change doesn't happen overnight.
(Sidenote: I was listening to this one interview with scifi author Richard Morgan... One note he made...how astonished he was when he realized how much of social behaviour is actually based on wanting to get laid... I cannot disagree with this assessment. And I think it should be faced squarely head on. This is human behaviour. It's what defines us. We can aspire to more. But we should not deny it.)
You have very valid points. To preface what I am going to say, I have a very big and brutal axe to grind against drinking and you can't won't find me supporting it or anything/anyone associated with it anytime.
If people only "loosen up" when they are drunk, then I am sorry, it says a lot of about how dull, uninspiring and unattractive they might be (and generally are :/) in everyday life. I will be honest and admit that I am heartless when it comes to ditching "friends" who have used this excuse more than a couple times. I used to think that it was okay, but time and again I have seen my quality of life come drastically down when I continue with disastrous drunken associations. I am not willing to waste any more of my life when I have so little of it left.
(e:Vincent) mentioned marrying a woman of his dreams. The key word here is "marrying". Though I don't support the concept of "marriage" in general, it has definitely come to mean a long time everyday consistent dedicated for-better-or-for-worse committment not a one-night "loosened up" stand - in every culture possible.
You may argue that first appearances are always deceptive, and they often are, wherever you meet people - at a bar or at a yoga class. But drinking heightens deceptions consistently. In a geeky way, you are statistically lessening your chances of meeting genuinely consistent people at a bar. Why would you want to play a hand when you know perfectly well that your chances of "winning" are less than usual?
Another point you make are about Hobbies and I agree. You are guaranteed disinterest in the shortest time possible if they are pursued for the sole reason of meeting a mate. Consciously picking something that you have really wanted to do (or need to do) - and keeping the mate search in the subconscious is a tactic that works. If you do yoga, you do it for your body not primary to stare at your yoga-mate's arse - though that is a very pleasant bonus. :D
Nice!
I met my wonderful wife online.