for back story.I am having a hard time talking about "religion" in the abstract, so I will be concrete, specific, and personal. This isn't intended to be a defense of religion, but rather an explanation of why my particular faith is important to me.
It's important to me, because it is a counter-narrative that creates a counter-community in a world that is full of lies.
"Lies?" you say. "Yes--lies."
Advertising tells me that I am not ok the way that I am, but that buying a certain product will make me ok--and it invariably does not.
Government tells me that other people (gays, terrorists, immigrants, stock brokers, religious people) are the source of my problems. Often, the proposed solution is violent defeat. The idea that violence will produce peace is another lie that is common in this world.
Other things promise to give me value, and fail. Sex, popularity, food, power--whatever it is that entices, it mostly does so with lies.
Now, those of you that know me know that there is nothing wrong with any of these things in and of themselves. Some of them (most of them?) I like quite a bit! But they can and do lie to you.
In the person of Jesus, I see one who did not live according to the lies. In fact, he exposed them for what they were, and created a counter-community that loved the enemy, received violence without returning it, and found value not in consuming resources, but in distributing them.
I need these stories, and the experience of the presence/love of God that goes with them to resist becoming a part of the system of lies that I outlined. There may be other ways, and if you are on a different one, that is fine with me, but this is what frames and shapes my life. I don't think I could be who I am without the grace of God in my life, and (for the most part) I like who I am and who I am becoming.
When I think about it, Tiny, you seem to experience science in similar ways. You live differently than others, because you have tested your experience.
I guess what is sad is that too many people live with bad science/religion or no science/religion, and just believe what they are told.
(e:jim), upon further reflection, I think you are on to something--much of religion's problems come because we have refused to respect limits. Now, this is tricky for me, because I don't believe in compartmentalizing my faith to only a part of my life--a hobby that I do sometimes and ignore others--it is a way of life.
But on the other hand, it cannot speak with authority over others not practicing that way. We overstep our limits when we generalize the conclusions that have worked for our community to other individuals/situations. While I may accept suffering as a way for myself, it is quite another thing to impose it on another.
Yet, for me, even staying within limits is a religious value--Jesus never took power "over" another, and encouraged his followers to focus on dealing with their own sin, rather than those of others.
Maybe that's enough for now. Just one postscript:
@(e:paul) I hate being a snotty child, but here's my kid-like remark: (e:heidi) and (e:tinypliny) started it! Seriously though, I thank you for creating this tolerant community, where different ideas can be discussed. I am not sure I would have been able to make friends with so many different people without (e:strip), and I am better for the experience.
I'm not bashing anyone really but I think (e:drew) brings up a good point that people do believe what they are told. I think most people believe what they are taught if they grew up with parents of a different faith they would believe that. I think most people don't go to church of a different belief system even if it is only a Baptist checking out southern baptists.
@jason -- sure enough. My first responsibility, however is to make sure that I am tolerant, not tolerated, and that I respect MY limitations, rather than enforce somebody else's.
libertad--those are two really good questions. I think I can answer the first one, but the second one will require another post and more time.
Bad science/bad religion is unexamined, uncritical science/religion, or s/r done with the intent of practicing power over another. For extreme examples of both, see the Arianism of Nazi Germany, or--closer to home, American science that "proved" that black people were only good for working and procreating, and the religion that invented a "curse of Ham" to justify said science/slavery while ignoring the story of Exodus.
Both use bad methods and bad reasoning for really bad results.
You said: "I guess what is sad is that too many people live with bad science/religion or no science/religion, and just believe what they are told."
I might have missed something but I was wondering what you consider bad science/religion?
Also, I was wondering why you accept suffering as a way? I mean I know that suffering is part of life but it just sounded curious to me that you accept it as a way. Why would you want to accept suffering as a way? Again, I understand how suffering can be used in positive ways but it just doesn't seem like it has to be a way of life.
Tolerance and respecting limits goes both ways.
I didn't mean you specificaly. I meant the site as an entity on it own. It talks about a lot of things I never expected. I guess that means it's growing up now, LOL.
wow! I'm really glad i started it. Great conversation. I'm totally in with (e:jim) & (e:tinypliny)...