This is a response to (e:libertad) 's question.

Suffering may be accepted as a way, but I must speak carefully. So, some caveats:

1. No way of living should be imposed, but this one definitely should not.

2. Suffering in itself should not be seen as an end, or even a means of repentance, as seen here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemptive_suffering


Still, Christ said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. " (Matthew 16:24, please excuse the non-inclusive language). When living differently than the rest of the world, even if it is for the good of the world, one might expect to suffer. Again, this does not mean that suffering should be sought out, but the fact remains that Jesus was executed by the state, as were many of his followers. Christianity, practiced faithfully, is not good for empire.

Instead, we should be living in community with those who are suffering already, and thus, bearing another's burdens. There is already enough suffering in the world that we do not have to seek out/create government persecution, or practice self-mortification. We can enter into the suffering of others.

This, oddly enough, is what compassion means literally. "Passion," as we learned from passion plays and that movie, means suffering, and com- as a prefix means "with." Compassion = suffering with. A way of compassion is a way of suffering.

Christianity works from beneath (or at least it is supposed to) rather than stand on a pedestal or shout from a distance, we are called to enter into the brokenness of the world, as our leader did. Another key bible verse (Philippians 2:5-8):

Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death- even death on a cross.

As is becoming a habit, this is a post that started as a comment. See for back story.


I am having a hard time talking about "religion" in the abstract, so I will be concrete, specific, and personal. This isn't intended to be a defense of religion, but rather an explanation of why my particular faith is important to me.

It's important to me, because it is a counter-narrative that creates a counter-community in a world that is full of lies.

"Lies?" you say. "Yes--lies."

Advertising tells me that I am not ok the way that I am, but that buying a certain product will make me ok--and it invariably does not.

Government tells me that other people (gays, terrorists, immigrants, stock brokers, religious people) are the source of my problems. Often, the proposed solution is violent defeat. The idea that violence will produce peace is another lie that is common in this world.

Other things promise to give me value, and fail. Sex, popularity, food, power--whatever it is that entices, it mostly does so with lies.

Now, those of you that know me know that there is nothing wrong with any of these things in and of themselves. Some of them (most of them?) I like quite a bit! But they can and do lie to you.

In the person of Jesus, I see one who did not live according to the lies. In fact, he exposed them for what they were, and created a counter-community that loved the enemy, received violence without returning it, and found value not in consuming resources, but in distributing them.

I need these stories, and the experience of the presence/love of God that goes with them to resist becoming a part of the system of lies that I outlined. There may be other ways, and if you are on a different one, that is fine with me, but this is what frames and shapes my life. I don't think I could be who I am without the grace of God in my life, and (for the most part) I like who I am and who I am becoming.

When I think about it, Tiny, you seem to experience science in similar ways. You live differently than others, because you have tested your experience.

I guess what is sad is that too many people live with bad science/religion or no science/religion, and just believe what they are told.

(e:jim), upon further reflection, I think you are on to something--much of religion's problems come because we have refused to respect limits. Now, this is tricky for me, because I don't believe in compartmentalizing my faith to only a part of my life--a hobby that I do sometimes and ignore others--it is a way of life.

But on the other hand, it cannot speak with authority over others not practicing that way. We overstep our limits when we generalize the conclusions that have worked for our community to other individuals/situations. While I may accept suffering as a way for myself, it is quite another thing to impose it on another.

Yet, for me, even staying within limits is a religious value--Jesus never took power "over" another, and encouraged his followers to focus on dealing with their own sin, rather than those of others.

Maybe that's enough for now. Just one postscript:

@(e:paul) I hate being a snotty child, but here's my kid-like remark: (e:heidi) and (e:tinypliny) started it! Seriously though, I thank you for creating this tolerant community, where different ideas can be discussed. I am not sure I would have been able to make friends with so many different people without (e:strip), and I am better for the experience.

. . . candidates get when they lose.

Comments on McCain sparked this, but I also remember watching Dole on Letterman after he was defeated and thinking he may have one if he acted more like that.

Gore got a lot more friendly after he got beat--grew a beard, put on weight, smiled more, and started talking about global warming more.

Maybe the conventional wisdom about how to behave in a campaign isn't so wise!

. . . you can thank/blame the Steelers, for beating the Washington Redskins.

. . . Or McCain, for speaking at halftime with EMPTY SEATS and DISINTERESTED PEOPLE behind him. Hey John--this race is televised!

Did you see this? It's like he wants to lose!

(Sorry I can't share it--ABCnews.com is all messed up.)