((Edit: apparently this isn't coming across as I intended. The point of the post was to begin a discussion on these concepts. This is not intended to be an attack on anyone.))
These two terms are still in the growing stages and, as a result, seem to vary in what I’ve read. I’ll provide a short (and perhaps poor) summary on the part that is currently important to me:
Homonormativity asserts that everybody with any lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (homosexual) connection is and acts as if they were homosexual.
Heteronormativity asserts that heterosexuals fall within traditional gender roles and attitudes.
More reading, if so inclined:
Homonormativity
Heteronormativity
At this point in my life I am surrounded by gay friends. I have 2 circles of largely gay friends, and another circle of every-type-of-bisexuality friends. I don’t really have any strictly straight circles that I’m around with any regularity. My two closest friends are gay.
This isn’t something that I think about much. It doesn’t matter to me. I don’t hang out with people because of their sexuality; I hang out with them because I think they are good people and I enjoy their company, and hopefully that feeling is reciprocal.
But, occasionally, and especially recently, I find that my sexuality is being questioned.
I am straight. But, since I am often in gay bars with my gay friends, and not ‘acting’ as straight as most other straight people, and not walking around with a girl on my arm, the notion that I can be straight seems to be difficult to grasp.
This is nowhere near the first time I have faced this attitude. I generally take it as a compliment; I hear ‘you are an individual’. That’s cool with me. I have fun joking around with it; pushing the line where I can for entertainment’s sake.
It’s more difficult to do that when a person’s attitude towards you changes just because you aren’t what they think you should be.
I don’t care that my personality doesn’t match what people think it should for a straight person. I’m damn well not going to act differently just because someone thinks I need to in order to prove who I am. It pisses me off that a person who belongs to a group that is still frequently persecuted, and who I have fought for regardless of the fact that I myself am not directly included in that group, is then going to turn around and give me attitude because I don’t fit in a particular mold. Insinuating that I’m not being honest, either with others or myself, is really insulting.
How is it that humans so consistently, and quickly, lose sight of the place we just left?
YesThatCasey's Journal
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01/12/2012 19:30 #55894
Hetero/homonormativity01/10/2012 16:37 #55883
Georgia's Anti-obesity CampaignAn NPR article circulating Facebook has been accompanied by some interesting comments.
YouTube collection of the videos uploaded by the campaign:
I do find myself concerned about how this could negatively affect an obese child's self-perception. I also worry about the potential of increased bullying.
That said, I know that these children will face serious health issues. I know there is a lack of honest dialogue with the parents, and between the parents and their children, regarding the obesity that each child is facing. I know that there is a complacency surrounding this matter that is curtailing the potential for corrective actions. I know that, having conditioned their body to live this way, and not knowing any other way of life, it will be increasingly difficult to correct this problem as they enter adulthood, and by the time they reach that point there will be some damage that cannot be undone.
Since the campaign seems to have been successful in bringing the conversation out into the open, I find myself supporting the campaign. I certainly would not have followed the same approach were I leading the campaign. I would have portrayed the children as empowered, challenging their parents notions about what is good for them, rallying against fast/unhealthy foods, and demanding better school lunches. But, with how many children are facing this matter, I find myself reluctant to shun an effort that I believe will have a net-positive result.
The organizers have said that this is the first of a 3-part campaign. Further spots will be more positive, with a focus on the actions necessary to combat the issue. It will be interesting to see what they cover. I hope that they are effective, and less controversial, as I believe this is a PSA we need in all states, not just Georgia.
YouTube collection of the videos uploaded by the campaign:
I do find myself concerned about how this could negatively affect an obese child's self-perception. I also worry about the potential of increased bullying.
That said, I know that these children will face serious health issues. I know there is a lack of honest dialogue with the parents, and between the parents and their children, regarding the obesity that each child is facing. I know that there is a complacency surrounding this matter that is curtailing the potential for corrective actions. I know that, having conditioned their body to live this way, and not knowing any other way of life, it will be increasingly difficult to correct this problem as they enter adulthood, and by the time they reach that point there will be some damage that cannot be undone.
Since the campaign seems to have been successful in bringing the conversation out into the open, I find myself supporting the campaign. I certainly would not have followed the same approach were I leading the campaign. I would have portrayed the children as empowered, challenging their parents notions about what is good for them, rallying against fast/unhealthy foods, and demanding better school lunches. But, with how many children are facing this matter, I find myself reluctant to shun an effort that I believe will have a net-positive result.
The organizers have said that this is the first of a 3-part campaign. Further spots will be more positive, with a focus on the actions necessary to combat the issue. It will be interesting to see what they cover. I hope that they are effective, and less controversial, as I believe this is a PSA we need in all states, not just Georgia.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:59
I should clean up what I mean about Genetics a bit more..... I'm not saying that everyone who is obese it is in there genes.... What I'm saying is you hear or see people who say no matter what they do they can't lose weight... Well then can but only to a certain point.... I think that everyone is set up to be sort of a certain size.... Height width and along the way that can change based on Diet and exercise or lack there of.... But some people are made wide and all ways will be..... I hope that the follow up to this is about health... Cause I can tell you that I eat a lot of crap and if I didn't have the high Metabolism at some point I would have been the fat kid.....
I should clean up what I mean about Genetics a bit more..... I'm not saying that everyone who is obese it is in there genes.... What I'm saying is you hear or see people who say no matter what they do they can't lose weight... Well then can but only to a certain point.... I think that everyone is set up to be sort of a certain size.... Height width and along the way that can change based on Diet and exercise or lack there of.... But some people are made wide and all ways will be..... I hope that the follow up to this is about health... Cause I can tell you that I eat a lot of crap and if I didn't have the high Metabolism at some point I would have been the fat kid.....
YesThatCasey - 01/12/12 19:44
On the note about anti-smoking campaigns increasing smokers, the data does not support this claim. They appear to be less effective than what we expect them to be but, generally, they reduce smoking.
Genetics: there is no genetic change that would account for the dramatic increase we have seen in a single generation. Yes, there are situations where someone will be overweight, perhaps even obese, while being healthy (or as healthy as they can within their body). But, these are a very small portion of the current overweight population. Far too often, overweight individuals are self-diagnosing themselves this way as an excuse for their condition. We do need to be careful about stigmatizing the image, but we also need to address the problem.
Tiny, I agree with you that the ads are not as negative as people are making them out to be. Much of this sentiment seems to be reactionary, assumed, and viral. I love the hypothetical scenario you are presenting about a non-obese child viewing the commercial. People are focusing on the bully who is going to use it as ammunition (as if they need any?). But, many other children may see them, and realize that they can be supportive.
On the note about anti-smoking campaigns increasing smokers, the data does not support this claim. They appear to be less effective than what we expect them to be but, generally, they reduce smoking.
Genetics: there is no genetic change that would account for the dramatic increase we have seen in a single generation. Yes, there are situations where someone will be overweight, perhaps even obese, while being healthy (or as healthy as they can within their body). But, these are a very small portion of the current overweight population. Far too often, overweight individuals are self-diagnosing themselves this way as an excuse for their condition. We do need to be careful about stigmatizing the image, but we also need to address the problem.
Tiny, I agree with you that the ads are not as negative as people are making them out to be. Much of this sentiment seems to be reactionary, assumed, and viral. I love the hypothetical scenario you are presenting about a non-obese child viewing the commercial. People are focusing on the bully who is going to use it as ammunition (as if they need any?). But, many other children may see them, and realize that they can be supportive.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:15
Rice is such a base from what I remember in Indian food but I think that is not as hard to give up as chips.... Reason being is that salt and things that are sweet this is very true together have and addicting quality .... I know they have done some type of research on it and brain Chemistry.....
I agree on the Parenting thing...
Rice is such a base from what I remember in Indian food but I think that is not as hard to give up as chips.... Reason being is that salt and things that are sweet this is very true together have and addicting quality .... I know they have done some type of research on it and brain Chemistry.....
I agree on the Parenting thing...
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:09
Somewhat related (and somewhat not) but I grew up eating 80% rice and potatoes all the time. I had no choice. Seriously. It made me sleepy all the time. When I finally realized this core issue, I completely gave up both these foods. I can definitely say that I am far happier now than when I was on those foods.
Somewhat related (and somewhat not) but I grew up eating 80% rice and potatoes all the time. I had no choice. Seriously. It made me sleepy all the time. When I finally realized this core issue, I completely gave up both these foods. I can definitely say that I am far happier now than when I was on those foods.
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:06
Okay, so I have to point out here that the role of a parent is extremely complicated. Not only do they have to set an example and eat right themselves, they also have to encourage kids to follow their example, provide the necessary framework to ensure that kids learn what is healthful and what isn't, encourage healthful eating as well as habits that increase physical activity all at the same time.
I always doubt if I will ever be a good parent. Its a super tough job as it is.
Okay, so I have to point out here that the role of a parent is extremely complicated. Not only do they have to set an example and eat right themselves, they also have to encourage kids to follow their example, provide the necessary framework to ensure that kids learn what is healthful and what isn't, encourage healthful eating as well as habits that increase physical activity all at the same time.
I always doubt if I will ever be a good parent. Its a super tough job as it is.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:02
Well most of it is the parents ..... But it isn't only them... Kids are in places where they can choose what to eat.... But most kids will pick what is tasty to them.... Now if they grow up on Healthy stuff that is what they will choose to eat.. Think say private school or Friends house where there are different options
Well most of it is the parents ..... But it isn't only them... Kids are in places where they can choose what to eat.... But most kids will pick what is tasty to them.... Now if they grow up on Healthy stuff that is what they will choose to eat.. Think say private school or Friends house where there are different options
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:01
If a non obese kid sees the ads, and if they have had proper parenting, then is it not possible that they ask this question as well. Yes, why are they fat? What is diabetes? What is wrong with the system? Assuming that non-obese kids and parents must know about how not to get fat is an equally dangerous thing for the future.
If a non obese kid sees the ads, and if they have had proper parenting, then is it not possible that they ask this question as well. Yes, why are they fat? What is diabetes? What is wrong with the system? Assuming that non-obese kids and parents must know about how not to get fat is an equally dangerous thing for the future.
tinypliny - 01/12/12 18:56
I don't think kids get much of a choice in what they eat, (e:metalpeter). I blame childhood obesity completely and squarely on poor parenting and lack of awareness of the consequences of obesity in the parents themselves.
Environments in which kids grow up obese are waaaaay different than environments in which they don't become obese. This not only includes food choices but also activity choices, transportation choices and commute choices.
Many of these decisions lie in the hands of parents. In addition, parents are themselves sometimes bound to bad decisions if these decisions are dictated by their financial situation.
I agree that the ads are somewhat brief but as (e:YesThatCasey) says, they are part of a sequence of ads. The complete campaign perhaps will be revealed as we go forwards. The current brief ads can be likened to "Statement of the problem" or just what is wrong in the picture.
I don't think kids get much of a choice in what they eat, (e:metalpeter). I blame childhood obesity completely and squarely on poor parenting and lack of awareness of the consequences of obesity in the parents themselves.
Environments in which kids grow up obese are waaaaay different than environments in which they don't become obese. This not only includes food choices but also activity choices, transportation choices and commute choices.
Many of these decisions lie in the hands of parents. In addition, parents are themselves sometimes bound to bad decisions if these decisions are dictated by their financial situation.
I agree that the ads are somewhat brief but as (e:YesThatCasey) says, they are part of a sequence of ads. The complete campaign perhaps will be revealed as we go forwards. The current brief ads can be likened to "Statement of the problem" or just what is wrong in the picture.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 18:21
Here is my Issue with the ads and this is just me.... If they where I'm Obese and that means I'm unhealthy I wouldn't have a problem... But it is more like Why am I fat... It is like a girl saying why Do I have small Boobs ? Well you are thin and never eat and have no fat what do you expect.... Or a girl Going why are My boobs Bigger then some kids heads... Well look at how the rest of you is built you just got them before everyone else... Why am I black ..... Well your parents have money so you live in the Burbs.... The Point is these ads are about kids not fitting in... Now again this is Just a first step... But I think if normal sized (what ever that is) kids see them they could think Fat People are different... The ugly truth that many people who are fat are lazy and eat way more then they should....They Choose to do this! But that isn't the case with everyone.... I do think the ads are a good idea....
Here is my Issue with the ads and this is just me.... If they where I'm Obese and that means I'm unhealthy I wouldn't have a problem... But it is more like Why am I fat... It is like a girl saying why Do I have small Boobs ? Well you are thin and never eat and have no fat what do you expect.... Or a girl Going why are My boobs Bigger then some kids heads... Well look at how the rest of you is built you just got them before everyone else... Why am I black ..... Well your parents have money so you live in the Burbs.... The Point is these ads are about kids not fitting in... Now again this is Just a first step... But I think if normal sized (what ever that is) kids see them they could think Fat People are different... The ugly truth that many people who are fat are lazy and eat way more then they should....They Choose to do this! But that isn't the case with everyone.... I do think the ads are a good idea....
tinypliny - 01/12/12 15:57
I am not sure that the ads are negative at all. They are simple and convey one single point. Awareness. That is the first entry point to prevention of any disease, not just obesity and related issues. I don't see how these ads will lead to low self-esteem. If they are obese, the kids are probably already having a tough childhood. These ads are targeted at parents to wake up to this fact and be aware that being fat may not necessarily be an unapproachable and irremediable condition.
I am not sure that the ads are negative at all. They are simple and convey one single point. Awareness. That is the first entry point to prevention of any disease, not just obesity and related issues. I don't see how these ads will lead to low self-esteem. If they are obese, the kids are probably already having a tough childhood. These ads are targeted at parents to wake up to this fact and be aware that being fat may not necessarily be an unapproachable and irremediable condition.
flacidness - 01/12/12 15:26
Cool it's about time. Georgia made sagging pants illegal recently too
Cool it's about time. Georgia made sagging pants illegal recently too
metalpeter - 01/10/12 18:36
So I have to admit that there is a part of me that is waiting and hoping to Hear or would that be (e:tinypliny)'s side to this....
Now I did the two comments for a reason in that I thought it would be good to do each part on its own and now have the other stuff effect it that much........
I would have to agree that even those these ads could do some damage the over all effect should be good in that it gets the issue into the light for people who have all Ways just eaten that way....
That being said there are a few things that must be addressed
1. Genetics are a factor and just cause you are big doesn't mean you aren't healthy just like being skinny doesn't mean you don't eat fried food every other day........
2. That is one factor in why heavy parents have heavy kids and heavy Pets , now the pets are because of how much food they eat or often times they get table food.... Now see if kids won't eat healthy if the adults don't and they are the ones who control the food...
2a. So not only do you have to reach the parents on the health issue but you also have to teach them how to deal with and break kids into healthy or at least less bad food... A kid who all ways gets a Big Mac or Triple Stacker and Large shack after every Baseball game isn't going to want to give that up...
3. Teach about real reading labels and what all that means... Lets face it sometimes what looks Healthy Has more fat and Salt then what looks bad... Some Packaging is made to make you think it is better off for you then it really is....
So I have to admit that there is a part of me that is waiting and hoping to Hear or would that be (e:tinypliny)'s side to this....
Now I did the two comments for a reason in that I thought it would be good to do each part on its own and now have the other stuff effect it that much........
I would have to agree that even those these ads could do some damage the over all effect should be good in that it gets the issue into the light for people who have all Ways just eaten that way....
That being said there are a few things that must be addressed
1. Genetics are a factor and just cause you are big doesn't mean you aren't healthy just like being skinny doesn't mean you don't eat fried food every other day........
2. That is one factor in why heavy parents have heavy kids and heavy Pets , now the pets are because of how much food they eat or often times they get table food.... Now see if kids won't eat healthy if the adults don't and they are the ones who control the food...
2a. So not only do you have to reach the parents on the health issue but you also have to teach them how to deal with and break kids into healthy or at least less bad food... A kid who all ways gets a Big Mac or Triple Stacker and Large shack after every Baseball game isn't going to want to give that up...
3. Teach about real reading labels and what all that means... Lets face it sometimes what looks Healthy Has more fat and Salt then what looks bad... Some Packaging is made to make you think it is better off for you then it really is....
metalpeter - 01/10/12 18:08
2. In terms of Obesity I think these ads could make things worse.... Yes there are people who don't know it is a problem and in the one story Portion Control is a good way of doing it.... As an example when you have a plate just fill most of the center you don't need the entire plate.... The reason I say worse is I think shocking people can have the other effect... All that gross smoking stuff I think just scares people and don't know if it helps at all really...... See though this shouldn't be about being over weight it should be about eating healthy or at least eating less of the bad stuff.... Cause what if I go to a Buffet and Eat 2 bowls of Ice Cream, 3 Sodas, and a plate of fried Chicken, and 2 more plates of food Well I'm thin so it is ok but for that guy the size of a linemen it is wrong?
2. In terms of Obesity I think these ads could make things worse.... Yes there are people who don't know it is a problem and in the one story Portion Control is a good way of doing it.... As an example when you have a plate just fill most of the center you don't need the entire plate.... The reason I say worse is I think shocking people can have the other effect... All that gross smoking stuff I think just scares people and don't know if it helps at all really...... See though this shouldn't be about being over weight it should be about eating healthy or at least eating less of the bad stuff.... Cause what if I go to a Buffet and Eat 2 bowls of Ice Cream, 3 Sodas, and a plate of fried Chicken, and 2 more plates of food Well I'm thin so it is ok but for that guy the size of a linemen it is wrong?
metalpeter - 01/10/12 18:02
With out reading your entire post... Don't worry I will I went to see the story and it is interesting..... But see here is the thing one should never do anything based on being Bullied cause you don't fit into Society... What is next if you go to an art school pretending one loves giving head more then getting it .... How about if I went to school in Texas I'm so thin I would get mocked what am I supposed to do take pills to slow down my Metabolism? When I said Society what I really mean is that places "Social Norms"... If you need a TV example think of the Twilight Zone with the gorgeous blonde who thinks she is ugly cause everyone else is a pig......
With out reading your entire post... Don't worry I will I went to see the story and it is interesting..... But see here is the thing one should never do anything based on being Bullied cause you don't fit into Society... What is next if you go to an art school pretending one loves giving head more then getting it .... How about if I went to school in Texas I'm so thin I would get mocked what am I supposed to do take pills to slow down my Metabolism? When I said Society what I really mean is that places "Social Norms"... If you need a TV example think of the Twilight Zone with the gorgeous blonde who thinks she is ugly cause everyone else is a pig......
paul - 01/10/12 17:41
As for the fat kids, I am not sure how to feel about this because I can't imagine what it feels like to be a fat kid.
Yet it seems like a good idea because they will be teased for being fat regardless of the campaign and this might help some of them.
As for the fat kids, I am not sure how to feel about this because I can't imagine what it feels like to be a fat kid.
Yet it seems like a good idea because they will be teased for being fat regardless of the campaign and this might help some of them.
paul - 01/10/12 17:36
Without the link button you just paste the link and it turns into the ::link:: style link. If you want the link to be some other text, you use the link button or just type in the linking code.
With the button, first type what you want as a link e.g. "click here for google" Then select that text, hit the link button and type in the link to the website. It will put the right code in for you.
Alternatively, you can just type the code in. If you hover over the link button it shows you an example of how it should look.
Without the link button you just paste the link and it turns into the ::link:: style link. If you want the link to be some other text, you use the link button or just type in the linking code.
With the button, first type what you want as a link e.g. "click here for google" Then select that text, hit the link button and type in the link to the website. It will put the right code in for you.
Alternatively, you can just type the code in. If you hover over the link button it shows you an example of how it should look.
YesThatCasey - 01/10/12 16:41
Ok, they appear if I don't use the link button.
Ok, they appear if I don't use the link button.
YesThatCasey - 01/10/12 16:40
Links aren't appearing for some reason. Here they are:
:::link:::
:::link:::
Links aren't appearing for some reason. Here they are:
:::link:::
:::link:::
07/17/2011 18:26 #54721
The Infamous CaseyThis was never a way I wanted to make my introduction on this site, but since I pretty much know, at least slightly, everyone who is reading a post about me, I feel it necessary to correct some things that didn’t really need to be misrepresented in the first place. How orderly this will be is questionable, since it isn’t as if this was some single incident that happened. For the most part I will focus on the misrepresentations Tony is perpetuating.
First off, Tony is not an enemy; he is someone that I simply do not respect anymore. This is largely because he had made it clear he does not respect me. He might argue that last point, because he wouldn’t want to come across as someone that has disrespected me. However, the fact that he thinks he is my enemy, that he thinks I went to Brushwood and intentionally antagonized him, that he thinks I’m somehow worried he’d fuck my girlfriend, that I’m toxic, and so on, should give some clues as to how much he really respects me.
I’ll start off with the girl though. First of all, I wasn’t pissed off that he was flirting with a girl I was with. The situation was this: I walk up with Sarah right at my side, planning to introduce Tony and her. Before I can say a word, the second he turns around he goes right up to her, starts licking and kissing her face (of which she is glancing at me and obviously quite uncomfortable) and completely ignores Nick (our other friend in the group) and I. This goes on for about a minute, without any encouragement from Sarah, before he finally acknowledges us. I know it sounds so much simpler when you call that “flirtingâ€, but I think most reasonable people would say that goes beyond flirting.
In this case, Tony was at least slightly intoxicated if not outright drunk and, while I was definitely annoyed, I could have dismissed it but for one thing: when I spoke to Tony about it a few days later, he made it clear that he did not regret anything and that he would do it all over again. Now, Tony’s approach of whoring himself out to any woman who will give a split-second of her time is not my approach, though I haven’t knocked him for it (I have expressed my disagreement with it). But, when he basically stated that I had to jump in-between them to stop this from happening, I had a lot of trouble seeing anyone but a selfish jackass who was putting his dick before his friends.
Now, mind you, I’m only scratching the surface here, and this wasn't the beginning as Tony claimed. A 15-year friendship is an invaluable thing to me. I can’t say this is as absolute a rule as I would like it to be, but I do try to accept and appreciate the foibles of my friends (and actually, I think I’m getting pretty good at this). I know that I have many, many foibles myself, and I know that reaching the point of friendship with others is tough for me since I am an introvert. For these reasons and others it took something much greater for me to decide Tony is not someone I want anything to do with. That is where honesty comes in: I cannot consider dishonesty anything other than a critical flaw, and Tony has been falling victim to this more and more as the years have progressed. Worse, it has been malicious.
His post is a good demonstration of his willingness to bend or twist the truth to his liking, if not outright lying.
He wasn’t concerned with going into the details of the Sarah incident. In fact, contrary to what he said, he never apologized. He was quite adamant about not apologizing, which is supported by the position he took. But now, according to his post, he apologized that night (we barely even talked that night, and certainly not about that, but, again, maybe it was his drunkenness).
He wasn’t concerned with the truth when he wrote about how I was out to get him at Brushwood; I wasn’t, I asked others to be sure nothing came across that way, and if Tony had actually committed earlier I was planning on doing something else (I had, in fact, committed before him). Surprisingly enough, I thought the weekend had actually worked quite well somehow, until he started txting others to express his frustration during the ride back.
He certainly wasn’t concerned about the truth when he talked about Jen. I didn’t move to Cali to be with Jen, I moved to Cali to look for work after graduating and to see some more of the world, and Jen enabled me to do that by offering her couch to me. I had just finished a great experience in Hawaii, and I was excited to do the same for another city. Another little problem in his claim is the fact that Jen had a boyfriend at that time, so it wouldn’t have made much sense to move 2600 miles to try and get with a girl in a committed relationship. But, you know, that’s just me out to screw Tony again. Worse, it suggests that I would ever go after a girl in a committed relationship, which is very much against who I am fundamentally, and I hope everyone other than Tony knows this about me (if you know me to begin with).
That wasn’t the only lie. Unfortunately, her boyfriend had some serious problems that were affecting Jen. She wound up breaking up with him while I was still couch crashing, and there was a point where we had explored stepping beyond friends. We both decided, for reasons Tony isn’t even aware of, that we would not. This was the 2nd of 3 different times where we had gone beyond friends, going as far back as 10 years ago, as much as Tony would like to suggest that Jen belongs to him. There was nothing that happened in any of those forays that made me hate Tony, contrary to his sentiment. Frankly, it had nothing to do with him, and I find it absurd that he thinks it does.
What does have to do with Tony and Jen is that, for 10 fucking years now, he has been stringing her along, telling her how much he loves her, yet never actually committing to her when the opportunities have presented themselves. Tony’s lack of commitment can be laughed off most times, but I don’t find anything funny about that type of attitude towards one of my friends in this scenario. Quite frankly, Tony has really become a bit of a chauvinistic ass in his treatment of women. He has blatantly stated that women are often nothing more than something to be fucked, and he is willing to use the exceptional social skills that he has developed since I have known him to get what he wants from them and then get the fuck out. So, to have him critique me on my treatment of a woman who I respect so thoroughly would be quite a laugh were he not serious. Anyway, I (mostly) digress. I can say I’ve never had trouble saying my thoughts to him outright (another of his misrepresentations), other than beyond the normal trouble I experience when trying to express myself. This includes anything that happened between me and Jen. Most of what is any of his business he already knows. Of course, very little of it is his business.
The whole part of his post about me that is “really fucking gay� Yeah, another misrepresentation. Accidental, I’m sure. This wasn’t about me seeing pictures and getting sad. This was about Tony and I basically not hanging out for a year, other than Street Fighter nights (good times). Occasionally we would get into discussions about hanging out, and he would tell me that he literally hasn’t been doing anything and has been really busy with the house, etc. Of course, Facebook puts all that shit out there. I didn’t care so much about not being invited to those things; we all have our own lives, and I am an adult, geez. Again, it was just about the honesty. And, again, just a small thing that could have been easily overlooked. But, when he needed money from me in the middle of this year, all of the sudden we hung out 3 days in a row. The only time in the year when just the two of us were hanging out, and it happened to be when he was in dire financial straits, and 3 days in a row. He would insist the two had nothing to do with each other, but, sorry, I just don’t buy that. Had he just been honest, asked for the cash, and skipped the buttering, I still would have been fine with lending him the money, as I have many times before because I will always try to help out my friends when they ask for it.
The most classic Tony moment in that essay is his belief that my envy of him is what’s pushing us apart. Tony doesn’t realize just how little I envy him. Yeah, I’d like to improve my social skills, but even if I were as socially talented as he is, I'd still prefer to build deep and lasting relationships with people as opposed to knowing a few superficial details about a thousand people in the city. Beyond that, he has nothing I want. He takes advantage of people and gets away with it because he is entertaining. He has told mutual friends that he would buy their house that he was renting, but I knew when he first said it he likely wasn’t speaking the truth, and time has proven that belief. He is renowned for his lack of commitment, and this is what has made it difficult for me to not show up when he is there since our friendship ended. I passed on a Thursday in the square because he was going there with the group I was invited with, but then the group never saw him for the rest of the night. I decided I’m not going to cater to his whims.
As we neared the end of our relationship and he told me not to come over and visit his roommate Sameer, he did so by saying that I was a threat to his property and, most disgustingly of all, to his daughter. The fact that he would suggest I would harm his daughter, a girl who slept in the house I lived in, a girl who supposedly would one day call me “uncleâ€, a girl who was nothing more than a child, well, yeah, that’s one of the comments that could still lead me into decking Tony. That was an absolutely despicable tactic, and was close to solidifying the end of anything amicable between us. The fact that he is trying to say I have hurt people before is another blatant, disgusting lie. I am not a vindictive person. If you commit some horrible wrong towards me, for the most part the worst that can happen is what is now happening between me and Tony: I simply don’t acknowledge your existence. Not surprisingly, he offers no evidence of this side of me.
The last nail in the coffin though was when we were talking at my house and trying to hash things out yet again. Over the year, Tony had made it clear that there were many things he did not like about me nor respect about me. I was struggling to understand why we were friends at all. He would make me feel like shit about myself, telling me how I need to stop doing this or how I’m an ass by doing that, finding the smallest thing to criticize without ever really expressing anything he liked about what I brought to the table. I’m already very self-conscious around people, and he was feeding these irrational fears.
During the final conversation, he stated that there was no point in talking to me, because I can and will simply say whatever it takes to make myself right. Now, I can’t say I’m always able to pinpoint and weigh the values of varying points being made, nor is my logic infallible, but I sure as fucking hell make an honest attempt to reach a valid conclusion, or at least contribute to an honest dialogue. I care about it so much that it was the primary reason I studied philosophy. Uhg.
By the end of that week, after a great deal of reflection, I had realized that Tony really didn’t respect any part of me, nor could we even have a discussion considering what he believes about me. Worse, I realized that he was a ‘friend’ who was constantly making me feel like shit about myself. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that since our friendship has ended I’ve been in a much better mood.
In the end, Tony’s egomania and dishonesty are just not something I want to be around. I can’t hang out with someone who believes so much of who I am and what I do is somehow out to get him. That I am so base of a person to commit the acts that he thinks I would commit. I have my flaws, but now I have one less flaw in my life.
That being said, I apologize that this drama is taking up any time in your life (except you Paul, I know you’re enjoying this, lol). And, sincerely, I’ve really enjoyed everyone I met in this circle. I hope you don’t take Tony’s opinion of me too seriously. I don’t open up quickly, but I think as you come to know me you will see that is not who I am, as long as you don’t let him taint the glass you are looking through.
I’m sure Tony and I will find ourselves in the same place again. When that happens, I will continue to place myself away from him as best I can, and I apologize for any awkward situations that do come about.
First off, Tony is not an enemy; he is someone that I simply do not respect anymore. This is largely because he had made it clear he does not respect me. He might argue that last point, because he wouldn’t want to come across as someone that has disrespected me. However, the fact that he thinks he is my enemy, that he thinks I went to Brushwood and intentionally antagonized him, that he thinks I’m somehow worried he’d fuck my girlfriend, that I’m toxic, and so on, should give some clues as to how much he really respects me.
I’ll start off with the girl though. First of all, I wasn’t pissed off that he was flirting with a girl I was with. The situation was this: I walk up with Sarah right at my side, planning to introduce Tony and her. Before I can say a word, the second he turns around he goes right up to her, starts licking and kissing her face (of which she is glancing at me and obviously quite uncomfortable) and completely ignores Nick (our other friend in the group) and I. This goes on for about a minute, without any encouragement from Sarah, before he finally acknowledges us. I know it sounds so much simpler when you call that “flirtingâ€, but I think most reasonable people would say that goes beyond flirting.
In this case, Tony was at least slightly intoxicated if not outright drunk and, while I was definitely annoyed, I could have dismissed it but for one thing: when I spoke to Tony about it a few days later, he made it clear that he did not regret anything and that he would do it all over again. Now, Tony’s approach of whoring himself out to any woman who will give a split-second of her time is not my approach, though I haven’t knocked him for it (I have expressed my disagreement with it). But, when he basically stated that I had to jump in-between them to stop this from happening, I had a lot of trouble seeing anyone but a selfish jackass who was putting his dick before his friends.
Now, mind you, I’m only scratching the surface here, and this wasn't the beginning as Tony claimed. A 15-year friendship is an invaluable thing to me. I can’t say this is as absolute a rule as I would like it to be, but I do try to accept and appreciate the foibles of my friends (and actually, I think I’m getting pretty good at this). I know that I have many, many foibles myself, and I know that reaching the point of friendship with others is tough for me since I am an introvert. For these reasons and others it took something much greater for me to decide Tony is not someone I want anything to do with. That is where honesty comes in: I cannot consider dishonesty anything other than a critical flaw, and Tony has been falling victim to this more and more as the years have progressed. Worse, it has been malicious.
His post is a good demonstration of his willingness to bend or twist the truth to his liking, if not outright lying.
He wasn’t concerned with going into the details of the Sarah incident. In fact, contrary to what he said, he never apologized. He was quite adamant about not apologizing, which is supported by the position he took. But now, according to his post, he apologized that night (we barely even talked that night, and certainly not about that, but, again, maybe it was his drunkenness).
He wasn’t concerned with the truth when he wrote about how I was out to get him at Brushwood; I wasn’t, I asked others to be sure nothing came across that way, and if Tony had actually committed earlier I was planning on doing something else (I had, in fact, committed before him). Surprisingly enough, I thought the weekend had actually worked quite well somehow, until he started txting others to express his frustration during the ride back.
He certainly wasn’t concerned about the truth when he talked about Jen. I didn’t move to Cali to be with Jen, I moved to Cali to look for work after graduating and to see some more of the world, and Jen enabled me to do that by offering her couch to me. I had just finished a great experience in Hawaii, and I was excited to do the same for another city. Another little problem in his claim is the fact that Jen had a boyfriend at that time, so it wouldn’t have made much sense to move 2600 miles to try and get with a girl in a committed relationship. But, you know, that’s just me out to screw Tony again. Worse, it suggests that I would ever go after a girl in a committed relationship, which is very much against who I am fundamentally, and I hope everyone other than Tony knows this about me (if you know me to begin with).
That wasn’t the only lie. Unfortunately, her boyfriend had some serious problems that were affecting Jen. She wound up breaking up with him while I was still couch crashing, and there was a point where we had explored stepping beyond friends. We both decided, for reasons Tony isn’t even aware of, that we would not. This was the 2nd of 3 different times where we had gone beyond friends, going as far back as 10 years ago, as much as Tony would like to suggest that Jen belongs to him. There was nothing that happened in any of those forays that made me hate Tony, contrary to his sentiment. Frankly, it had nothing to do with him, and I find it absurd that he thinks it does.
What does have to do with Tony and Jen is that, for 10 fucking years now, he has been stringing her along, telling her how much he loves her, yet never actually committing to her when the opportunities have presented themselves. Tony’s lack of commitment can be laughed off most times, but I don’t find anything funny about that type of attitude towards one of my friends in this scenario. Quite frankly, Tony has really become a bit of a chauvinistic ass in his treatment of women. He has blatantly stated that women are often nothing more than something to be fucked, and he is willing to use the exceptional social skills that he has developed since I have known him to get what he wants from them and then get the fuck out. So, to have him critique me on my treatment of a woman who I respect so thoroughly would be quite a laugh were he not serious. Anyway, I (mostly) digress. I can say I’ve never had trouble saying my thoughts to him outright (another of his misrepresentations), other than beyond the normal trouble I experience when trying to express myself. This includes anything that happened between me and Jen. Most of what is any of his business he already knows. Of course, very little of it is his business.
The whole part of his post about me that is “really fucking gay� Yeah, another misrepresentation. Accidental, I’m sure. This wasn’t about me seeing pictures and getting sad. This was about Tony and I basically not hanging out for a year, other than Street Fighter nights (good times). Occasionally we would get into discussions about hanging out, and he would tell me that he literally hasn’t been doing anything and has been really busy with the house, etc. Of course, Facebook puts all that shit out there. I didn’t care so much about not being invited to those things; we all have our own lives, and I am an adult, geez. Again, it was just about the honesty. And, again, just a small thing that could have been easily overlooked. But, when he needed money from me in the middle of this year, all of the sudden we hung out 3 days in a row. The only time in the year when just the two of us were hanging out, and it happened to be when he was in dire financial straits, and 3 days in a row. He would insist the two had nothing to do with each other, but, sorry, I just don’t buy that. Had he just been honest, asked for the cash, and skipped the buttering, I still would have been fine with lending him the money, as I have many times before because I will always try to help out my friends when they ask for it.
The most classic Tony moment in that essay is his belief that my envy of him is what’s pushing us apart. Tony doesn’t realize just how little I envy him. Yeah, I’d like to improve my social skills, but even if I were as socially talented as he is, I'd still prefer to build deep and lasting relationships with people as opposed to knowing a few superficial details about a thousand people in the city. Beyond that, he has nothing I want. He takes advantage of people and gets away with it because he is entertaining. He has told mutual friends that he would buy their house that he was renting, but I knew when he first said it he likely wasn’t speaking the truth, and time has proven that belief. He is renowned for his lack of commitment, and this is what has made it difficult for me to not show up when he is there since our friendship ended. I passed on a Thursday in the square because he was going there with the group I was invited with, but then the group never saw him for the rest of the night. I decided I’m not going to cater to his whims.
As we neared the end of our relationship and he told me not to come over and visit his roommate Sameer, he did so by saying that I was a threat to his property and, most disgustingly of all, to his daughter. The fact that he would suggest I would harm his daughter, a girl who slept in the house I lived in, a girl who supposedly would one day call me “uncleâ€, a girl who was nothing more than a child, well, yeah, that’s one of the comments that could still lead me into decking Tony. That was an absolutely despicable tactic, and was close to solidifying the end of anything amicable between us. The fact that he is trying to say I have hurt people before is another blatant, disgusting lie. I am not a vindictive person. If you commit some horrible wrong towards me, for the most part the worst that can happen is what is now happening between me and Tony: I simply don’t acknowledge your existence. Not surprisingly, he offers no evidence of this side of me.
The last nail in the coffin though was when we were talking at my house and trying to hash things out yet again. Over the year, Tony had made it clear that there were many things he did not like about me nor respect about me. I was struggling to understand why we were friends at all. He would make me feel like shit about myself, telling me how I need to stop doing this or how I’m an ass by doing that, finding the smallest thing to criticize without ever really expressing anything he liked about what I brought to the table. I’m already very self-conscious around people, and he was feeding these irrational fears.
During the final conversation, he stated that there was no point in talking to me, because I can and will simply say whatever it takes to make myself right. Now, I can’t say I’m always able to pinpoint and weigh the values of varying points being made, nor is my logic infallible, but I sure as fucking hell make an honest attempt to reach a valid conclusion, or at least contribute to an honest dialogue. I care about it so much that it was the primary reason I studied philosophy. Uhg.
By the end of that week, after a great deal of reflection, I had realized that Tony really didn’t respect any part of me, nor could we even have a discussion considering what he believes about me. Worse, I realized that he was a ‘friend’ who was constantly making me feel like shit about myself. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that since our friendship has ended I’ve been in a much better mood.
In the end, Tony’s egomania and dishonesty are just not something I want to be around. I can’t hang out with someone who believes so much of who I am and what I do is somehow out to get him. That I am so base of a person to commit the acts that he thinks I would commit. I have my flaws, but now I have one less flaw in my life.
That being said, I apologize that this drama is taking up any time in your life (except you Paul, I know you’re enjoying this, lol). And, sincerely, I’ve really enjoyed everyone I met in this circle. I hope you don’t take Tony’s opinion of me too seriously. I don’t open up quickly, but I think as you come to know me you will see that is not who I am, as long as you don’t let him taint the glass you are looking through.
I’m sure Tony and I will find ourselves in the same place again. When that happens, I will continue to place myself away from him as best I can, and I apologize for any awkward situations that do come about.
leetee - 07/20/11 20:26
Thanks, (e:Tinypliny), i did read (e:enknot)'s original post. I was just trying to be a bit silly. :o)
Thanks, (e:Tinypliny), i did read (e:enknot)'s original post. I was just trying to be a bit silly. :o)
enknot - 07/20/11 12:35
Its true. I pretty much instigated his arrival. If were more thoughtful and less distraught it might have been a softer landing, but che sera. Hopefully this sad drama isnt all well see of his presence on the site.
Its true. I pretty much instigated his arrival. If were more thoughtful and less distraught it might have been a softer landing, but che sera. Hopefully this sad drama isnt all well see of his presence on the site.
tinypliny - 07/20/11 11:00
(e:leetee), there was no way he could have started with a simple hi. ;-) Back-story: :::link:::
(e:leetee), there was no way he could have started with a simple hi. ;-) Back-story: :::link:::
leetee - 07/20/11 10:21
wow. that's some first post. most new (e:peeps) just say hi or something. :o) welcome. and, if it matters at all to you, i wouldn't judge someone by someone else's opinion. i hope getting this all out in the open gives you what you need, be it closure or vindication.
wow. that's some first post. most new (e:peeps) just say hi or something. :o) welcome. and, if it matters at all to you, i wouldn't judge someone by someone else's opinion. i hope getting this all out in the open gives you what you need, be it closure or vindication.
metalpeter - 07/19/11 16:50
All I can really say is this.... I know you two not that well really from parties and you are both pretty interesting (in a good way)... Now I can't say about out and about in the world.. I think that often times people are friends because of things that they both like or have things in common.... To be honest I don't know how well friends really know each other. I think that when things are good people don't notice or don't care about the things they don't like or disagree about and then once there is a problem ....Those differences that before were not a big deal become a big deal.......
I had to say what I said about the criticism but cause that is how I am with compliments.... Cause I know often times people say nice things they don't mean and they are trying to blow smoke up the ass or get on your good side. But they don't see that what looks good to them was not what one was aiming for.... So I never trust them and have to look at them......
All I can really say is this.... I know you two not that well really from parties and you are both pretty interesting (in a good way)... Now I can't say about out and about in the world.. I think that often times people are friends because of things that they both like or have things in common.... To be honest I don't know how well friends really know each other. I think that when things are good people don't notice or don't care about the things they don't like or disagree about and then once there is a problem ....Those differences that before were not a big deal become a big deal.......
I had to say what I said about the criticism but cause that is how I am with compliments.... Cause I know often times people say nice things they don't mean and they are trying to blow smoke up the ass or get on your good side. But they don't see that what looks good to them was not what one was aiming for.... So I never trust them and have to look at them......
YesThatCasey - 07/18/11 23:00
"I put a lot of energy and effort into NOT doing what makes me feel not very great about myself."
I like that a lot Tiny. :o)
Peter: Without a doubt I have given it careful consideration. Far too much, quite honestly. These are not critiques that are intended to better who I am. They have been malicious, petty, and/or not remotely helpful. The difference in the views we expressed should give an idea just how distant his understanding of me is.
"I put a lot of energy and effort into NOT doing what makes me feel not very great about myself."
I like that a lot Tiny. :o)
Peter: Without a doubt I have given it careful consideration. Far too much, quite honestly. These are not critiques that are intended to better who I am. They have been malicious, petty, and/or not remotely helpful. The difference in the views we expressed should give an idea just how distant his understanding of me is.
tinypliny - 07/18/11 19:53
"putting stuff online in a secret place that no one will see."
There's always Penzu: :::link:::
"putting stuff online in a secret place that no one will see."
There's always Penzu: :::link:::
tinypliny - 07/18/11 19:50
Yo, infamous Casey, put up an avatar, man!
Yo, infamous Casey, put up an avatar, man!
metalpeter - 07/18/11 18:03
Well first off all welcome to (e:strip) officially
Second off there hasn't been any drama in a long time or if so I've missed it......
3rd I won't take sides...... It is odd that your two sides are so far apart...... I can't speak for tony bot not all criticism is bad.... Yes it feels bad at the time.... But the key is to after the fact look back and see if what was said is true or if it can be looked at as true...... If true is it something that one wants to change or are they happy that way.......
Well first off all welcome to (e:strip) officially
Second off there hasn't been any drama in a long time or if so I've missed it......
3rd I won't take sides...... It is odd that your two sides are so far apart...... I can't speak for tony bot not all criticism is bad.... Yes it feels bad at the time.... But the key is to after the fact look back and see if what was said is true or if it can be looked at as true...... If true is it something that one wants to change or are they happy that way.......
enknot - 07/17/11 23:03
welcome to (e:strip). I'ma read this a few more times and soak it up. Now that our underpants are flappin in the wind you wanna have a drink and wage the last 15+ years against our abilities of reason and social dexterity against to clear this shit up, or are you to hurt to try?
welcome to (e:strip). I'ma read this a few more times and soak it up. Now that our underpants are flappin in the wind you wanna have a drink and wage the last 15+ years against our abilities of reason and social dexterity against to clear this shit up, or are you to hurt to try?
paul - 07/17/11 21:42
The whole censor thing is so ridiculous because it only takes one friend on the in, to let it out. E.g. person A posts, person B is out of the circle, person C is in the circle, Person B and C have lunch. Its worse than if person B knew up front.
That is one thing I like about my estrip blog. By being totally public it forces me to filter upfront instead of pretending I am putting stuff online in a secret place that no one will see.
The whole censor thing is so ridiculous because it only takes one friend on the in, to let it out. E.g. person A posts, person B is out of the circle, person C is in the circle, Person B and C have lunch. Its worse than if person B knew up front.
That is one thing I like about my estrip blog. By being totally public it forces me to filter upfront instead of pretending I am putting stuff online in a secret place that no one will see.
vincent - 07/17/11 20:47
What I mean is Facebook is the Stasi's Wet Dream and that it totally beats anything that secret police in a totalitarian regime had back then. If you can put place and times for things he said, you prove your point logically.
For example, "Sorry Dude I'm not feeling well and staying in." Facebook update: Allen St is totally crazy and rockin' tonight! You're busted, especially when you're tagged in some chick's mobile pic post with her giving a duckface. This is an example, I'm not sure if that actually happened or not. My point is you could go back and logically prove it.
At the end of the day Buffalo is a small place, So it sucks that you two just can't cut each other totally loose. Hey life goes on, mourn all you want about the past but remember it's the PAST. Look forward to getting on with your life. (e:Jason) is wrong, there are some things that you can never recover from relationship wise, it sounds like that line was crossed.
Too bad that happened to both of you, but one has to deal with what has already happened. There is more ahead of you than behind you, please realize that at least.
Best of luck to both of you.
What I mean is Facebook is the Stasi's Wet Dream and that it totally beats anything that secret police in a totalitarian regime had back then. If you can put place and times for things he said, you prove your point logically.
For example, "Sorry Dude I'm not feeling well and staying in." Facebook update: Allen St is totally crazy and rockin' tonight! You're busted, especially when you're tagged in some chick's mobile pic post with her giving a duckface. This is an example, I'm not sure if that actually happened or not. My point is you could go back and logically prove it.
At the end of the day Buffalo is a small place, So it sucks that you two just can't cut each other totally loose. Hey life goes on, mourn all you want about the past but remember it's the PAST. Look forward to getting on with your life. (e:Jason) is wrong, there are some things that you can never recover from relationship wise, it sounds like that line was crossed.
Too bad that happened to both of you, but one has to deal with what has already happened. There is more ahead of you than behind you, please realize that at least.
Best of luck to both of you.
- The one thing about Google+ that is smart is that they make you "filter" people from the onset. That feature is available on facebook, but not everyone is aware or savvy enough to self-censor their updates to certain people on their Friend's list.
vincent - 07/17/11 20:37
Not to stir the pot, but given what I've seen on that other social network, I'd total believe your side on the story in a court of law.
Not to stir the pot, but given what I've seen on that other social network, I'd total believe your side on the story in a court of law.
paul - 07/17/11 19:43
Welcome to estrip and thanks for making up for the lack of drama this weekend ;)
Welcome to estrip and thanks for making up for the lack of drama this weekend ;)
tinypliny - 07/17/11 19:29
I put a lot of energy and effort into NOT doing what makes me feel not very great about myself. That has probably been the only constant guiding principle in the seemingly random string of stuff I do all the time (and stop doing all the time).
If both of you feel pretty much the same about the other (as I see from your posts), then I say to both of you, consider doing what feels the best to yourself.
I put a lot of energy and effort into NOT doing what makes me feel not very great about myself. That has probably been the only constant guiding principle in the seemingly random string of stuff I do all the time (and stop doing all the time).
If both of you feel pretty much the same about the other (as I see from your posts), then I say to both of you, consider doing what feels the best to yourself.
Now the next thing I'm going to say or would that be write may get a few people upset with me but it is just my view from what I have seen growing up....
Mexicans and Puerto Ricans don't get along, Island and City PR's donate get along, Jews think they are the only people ever oppressed, I have heard lesbians hate men, Blacks hate whites (cracker) and visa Versa, Africans Hate sons of slaves, Catholics hate baptists, Different kinds of Muslims kill each other in Iraq..... My point is that everyone even if they don't know it or even if it is a good one holds sterotypes... So if I was in a gay bar and someone thought I was gay and they didn't believe me when I said I wasn't there would be some reasons for them to think this just based on sterotypes.... But also from a logic perspective it would make more sense of "Oh he is just trying to turn me down" "he is gay but doesn't know it" "Oh he isn't out to everyone in the group" The lie from a logic perspective makes more sense.......
I guess the thing at the End of the day is that we all look at our selves one way and people look at us a different way.... Now often to see who we are really and not whom we think we are we have to try and look at it from the other persons Perspective or one out side of our selves.... Don't have a real example other then when we think back on something from our past and go you know what I really was a Jerk but we couldn't think of it then.... Best example is when someone says I'm not like everyone else and they shave their head and get all these piercings and get a leather Jacket and they are like the only kid or only one of about 3 in there huge school who looks like that.... Then they go to a concert in town or even warped tour and there and hundreds of people dressed and looking just like that same sub culture..... Now in school they are the weirdo the out cast but at that show they part of a culture... Yes it has been called the hot topic culture .....
Just have to ad my two Cents or maybe it is more like a Dollar...
@(e:tinypliny) there is kinda a joke but the term trisexual means you will try anything once.....
Casey I'm not doing this here.
Lauren, it looks like during my reading I may have started to overlap the two concepts. I think some of this was due to articles and treatise I was reading, as I was not familiar with either term beforehand. Considering the expansion of homonormativity, and the relative infancy of these terms, I wouldn’t be surprised if heteronormativity expanded. Then again, maybe there are other terms that more accurately reflect these concepts.
I found Duggan’s treatise very interesting, but more specialized (and politicized) than that which was being used by many other articles and sites. The term was in use for several years before she became heavily associated with it. I love what she is trying to convey; I’m just not sure it encompassed everything the term was being used to address.
Tiny, I definitely don’t care in the sense that I want peoples’ perception to match the reality exactly as it is. That’s not a reasonable expectation, I am aware. I guess my caring starts when misperception influences actions that potentially have a negative impact on the way people treat each other. I mean that in a general context, not just personal. For those reasons, I figured these concepts (which may not match exactly what I was initially thinking about) were healthy to think about.
TK, I already made it clear this was not a public discussion between myself and anyone, and added the blurb at the start of the post to try and further highlight this.
As for your comment, you definitely are not giving equal weight to all the things I have shared with you. First of all, I don’t do a great deal of complaining about being single. I occasionally mention it; it is on my mind. However, I have also very clearly stated why I am single. I’m a little annoyed that I have to put this out here right now, but I have said that being a 36 year old unemployed man without any clear direction in my life, lacking a car, and being tight on my wallet, doesn’t exactly make me a hot catch. My confidence is at an extremely low point, the lowest its ever been. I’m not really trying to find a woman right now.
When I bring up that I’m single, I think it should be easy to understand why I don’t accompany it with these facts every single time. I try to joke around about it, and keep the mood happy. If you expect me to never mention it, that’s a pretty unfair expectation. I’ve never asked anyone to feel sorry for me, so don’t put that on me. That’s your belief.
I also don’t go to bars to meet women; I go to bars to hang out with friends. I feel like you already know that I’m a shy person, and I don’t flirt. I’ve never started a relationship in a bar. Though, if I was going to, it probably would be in a gay bar/club. These are the places I get hit on by women the most (and I mean, by a lot). Last time at Cathode I had a woman aggressively hitting on me. The last time at Marcellas I was grinding on a girl (something I rarely do) who came up to me and left the place with digits from another girl. Of course, since I’m not really putting myself out there, this is all secondary to the company that is the reason I am there. That, and the better music.
Back on topic, the notion of a “normal straight†is my point. This is a misplaced, even useless, concept. When it comes to sexuality, the only thing that really matters is who you are attracted to/sleep with. It has nothing to do with who you hang out with, what places you frequent, or any other detail really. Interpreting unrelated actions as a sign of sexuality when there is ample evidence and sincere statements to the contrary is not conducive to an informed opinion.
Paul, you are dead-on with the free-time pressures. Rebecca is someone who I would be around much more, but she works two jobs, has a child to care for, and very little free time as a result. Michaelene is in a similar situation, as are many others. On top of the time, there is the fact that I don’t enjoy being around children all that much. Gay people tend to be free of these problems. Glad you brought this point up.
I’m pretty much a fan of the idea that sexual orientation is an outdated tool, its usefulness lost by the energy we need to expend in defining it and it’s necessary incompleteness regardless. That said, while you may be ok with either gender, there are still people who are not. I imagine there must be some people you do not find attractive. I think that can be related to how some people are not attracted to particular genders; they just happen to be different factors.
I understand the notion of extending personal traits to others. However, this is often what gets people into trouble when it is taken too far, particularly when evidence to the contrary is ignored. I suppose it doesn’t help when you experience people who say one thing and eventually do another. Unfortunately, I don’t know a way to really separate those two, other than trying to measure the sincerity and honesty behind actions and words. But, extrapolating experience from a small group and applying that to everyone is definitely not the answer. This can be related to a wide range of things; for example, religious people who believe that non-believers just haven’t heard the word of God, instead of respecting their differing views and the thought they have put into their worldview.
I should be clear that it isn’t a problem to question someone. Inquiry is how we grow. I think the problem is when we ignore the response for selfish or irrational reasons. Assuming someone is insincere in their response can have a detrimental impact on your perception of them, sometimes before you realize that it’s happening. This can have a negative impact on how people interact, which I hope people can reduce by being conscious of these natural tendencies. It’s ok if we don’t understand something, but filling that lack of understanding with an unsupported belief is not ok.
Oh, and kudos for working in an NWA reference…that was definitely unexpected. ;o)
Okay I had to take that test.. and apparently I am a 3.
Just for the record, (e:paul), I don't want you having sex with other men any more than I not wanting you to have sex with other women. So I don't see how I factor into your lack of vaginal sex. And, I personally think the Kinsey scale is utter bullshit. But please carry one, this is interesting.
I really like that Paul LOL. I have had sex with women a few times and still do not like it. I have given it the old college try for sure :) I believe i have posted about it. Once in 2007 and twice in 2009. oops!
By polictical reasons, I just meant I wanted to find out the backstory first so I didn't end up in the middle of an argument between two friends. Even this time I found myself deleting so much. I have become a self-censored person. I never wanted to be this way - I am going to have to work on it.
Here is one good non-sexual reason that a straight man might surround himself with gay people. It might really have more to do with gay people generally having more free time and less risk aversion due to lack of children. It seems that is still a primary goal of yours. I mean you have even more gay friends than I do. You also have more free time. Maybe there is correlation?
That being said, it is hard for me to understand not being attracted to either sex. I guess it all comes down to nothing grosses me out. I feel that once I bond with someone there is a distinct possibility I am going to want to have sex with them. You can pretty much ask any friend I ever had. Gender doesnt play a big role in this. This doesnt mean I have gotten with every friend I ever had, but I probably thought about it if they cross a certain attractiveness threshold and closeness. Some people say this makes me a whore. I don't care.
Looking back my early sexuality 12-15 was greatly influenced by a whole bunch of circle jerks with a bunch of different groups of guys. I didn't consider those gay experiences because multiple people were involved and straight porn or dares was the driving factor.
Around age 15 I started having sex with women. I had a lot of sex from 15-20. Its a miracle that I did not become a teen father. Honestly, during that time I really didn't think about guys in a sexual way. I can't decide if it was because I was repressing it or just not feeling it. Based on some journals I found, I think religion might have played a role. That wasn't to say guys were not hitting on me.
It wasnt until I was 20 and in Germany that I had my first bromosexual experience. I met this guy who very similar. We both had casual girlfriends at the time. We spend a lot of time together - dancing, smoking pot, hiking around the city, the beach, etc. All my favorite things. We were bros. He was so hot, I know this not just based on personal preference but because every girl wanted him.
One time we went dancing and afterwards I crashed at his place. We were just laying around listening to NWA when this song came on :::link::: If you dont know the song just listen because it all makes much more sense afterwards. I immediately noticed he had a boner in his tight black levis 501s. I reached over and a few minutes later I found out what an uncircumsized dick is all about.
After that, there were no more barriers and pretty much anyone was a possible target for my sexual desires. I found most guys, regardless of their sexual identity, would go for it if we were isolated enough, they were just horny enough, or they were not getting any. I think TK has found this too. To be honest, the straighter, the more challenge, the better. Its part of some straight men fantasize about lesbians. Its not just a woman, its a woman that normally doesn't desire men, and has made a particular exception for just for you. Many gay men feel that about straight men. Out of all of the numerous attempts, only three times didn't work out and I only lost one friend (and that was on like the tenth try). I think the fact that I was dating and having sex with a bunch of woman at the time made it even easier because there was not the threat of me being a gay man factoring in on their decision.
For a while I tried to maintain two separate relationships at once. One with a man and one with a woman. I was up front with both of them. Obviously, that could not sustain itself. After that point (1998) I always dated two people at once, I just realized they had to also be in the relationship. Some people would say that makes me a freak. I don't care.
The real defining factor in me stopping to have sex with women was beginning to date matt who is much more strongly on the higher end of the Kinsey scale, as I think TK is.
As with everything I tend to apply my personal experience to everyone else. Its weird in this case because I dont understand either side. I cannot understand how TK is sexually disgusted by woman, and I cannot understand how you are sexually unattracted to men. I can respect it, I just cannot understand. To TK I would say, we all came out of there and how can you not love breasts. To you I would say lets not pretend there isnt a penis in your hand everyday, lol.
At the same time I understand how it feels to have everyone else determine what they think you are. I feel like now every just assumes i am Kinsey 6 because I have two male partners. The truth is I limit myself for other reasons. And the fact that people can limit themselves for reasons besides sexual identity is what makes people question other people's identity to begin with. Not that I am questioning you. Okay, okay, I would like to se eyou around one asian homo just to make sure, lol.
its not that that i don't appreciate individuality because i do, more than you would know. My problem is when you complain that you don't get any "Straight" women to be around or sleep with. and you won't if you surround yourself with only gay boys and go to only gay bars. You can totally be around whomever you want but when you're saying certain things and doing other things that "normal" straight guys wouldn't do and i won't go into details. It's gonna make me think and wonder what you're true agenda is. You know know you don't have to prove your sexuality to anybody it's nobodies business but your own, but don't expect people to feel sorry for you and your sex life when you are doing nothing to fix it yourself. I'm gonna stop here because i don't want to say too much. This is a conversation you and i should have had and not posted first.
OOOOH!! Bring on the bigger responsE!
I deleted my responses for political reasons. I was not sure who started it so I didn't want to say anything till I knew. I will write a bigger response as soon as I am at a keyboard.
PS: I intentionally wrote I was trisexual-on-a-metaphysical-scale on a super-serious official questionnaire recently. It was so much fun! :)
Comment #67174 --> ohhhhh! I see now. yes, that resolves some confusion.
My solution: Who cares?! You are who you are - straight, gay, bi, tri, confused, stressed, whatever. People will think whatever they want to. The trick is to stand back and enjoy the gossip. ;-)
(e:Lauren), I miss your posts and you glamourous husband's, you (e:strip) traitors!
Ok, first I want to clarify the meaning of heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the assumption that ALL people are straight and are therefore treated as such... for example, when I walk into a GYN office and they are flabbergasted that I'm not on birth control or people look at my wedding ring and ask about my husband. Heteronormativity ignores or erases the possibility that people may be something other than straight and is akin to racism in the sense that it is culturally and systematically embedded in the way we think, act, and treat people.
So, that being said, I think the link you gave for the definition of homonormativity is lacking and probably misleading. I found this: HOMONORMATIVITY - ‘A politics that does not contest dominant heteronormative assumptions and institutions, but upholds and sustains them, while promising the possibility of a demobilized gay constituency and a privatized, depoliticized gay culture anchored in domesticity and consumption’ ( L. Duggan 2003 ). So I think what it's saying is that in gay culture homonormativity is the internalization by the gay community of values and stereotypes of what it means to be gay which belong to/have been created by the straight community.
Ug, I have run out of time and have to get ready for work, but thanks for the post, I have been out of the academic loop and haven't heard this term "homonormativity" yet. Interesting concept.
Bah, this is clearly not coming across as I intended. Unfortunately, I don't know how to clear it up because I don't know what people are thinking when they are reading it.
Maybe the part where I'm expressing my frustration is being viewed as an attack or something, but that's not the case. It was more to convey how these attitudes can make me feel when I or people I know are targeted by them.
The intention of my OP was to point out is that there are cultural tendencies to identify attitudes as belonging to particular groups, but that these tendencies are misplaced, unhelpful, and anti-progressive. The growing acceptance of homosexuality has been accompanied by the notion that these somewhat distinct groups have distinct characteristics. Instead, both sides need to remember that this is about allowing people to be whatever it is they want to be. Not just sexually, but in any form of expression.
I suppose this all started after a discussion at game night. My sexuality came up, and TK took the common position that I was gay, something he adamantly believes. Others had more interesting positions, with the Kinsey scale coming up for example. I found it humorous for the most part, but the underlying frustration as I later thought through it led me to start researching these lines of thought. I came across the aforementioned concepts for the first time, and thought they were good starting point for a discussion.
This isn't a matter of drama. I'm just sharing my thoughts without editing them since I feel e-strip is a more intimate grounds for discussion. There aren't any reasons to delete responses. I was just interested on peoples thoughts on this matter. I guess now I'm also interested in what made my post come across so differently, heh.
Wow I must gave really fallen off the gossip wagon to have missed whatever started this.
I can't even count the number of responses I wrote to this and deleted.
My point is clearly being missed. This has nothing to do with people hitting on me. That doesn't bother me. I'd suggest reading the links. This has to do with forcing people into particular roles.
With more time I do want to read up on them.... I do agree that they both are negative.... With any new terms or information one or at least I have to think a bit.....
Peter, the terms are negative. They are unreasonable constraints that people place on others or themselves.
Now in terms of being Bothered in bars Not sure what to tell yeah.... Make you gay friends to Straight bars and make them wait an hour to get then when they do get in listen to the same music and dance? HA....
I think the real issue or one of them might be the deception... Not that you do it on purpose... But the thinking aka Assuming everyone there is gay... Kinda like if some one gay was at a bar drinking and talking about the game and this and that and then came onto them... It isn't this is gross (Yes that could be a part of it) but it is that you think this person is one thing and they are another.... But again just a guess... Kinda Like when you go some place to eat think it is cool think it is your place list them as the best everything in art voice and then 2 months later the chef you talked to and thought was the owner isn't cause the place is a national chain ?
Hoping I'm not the only one to chime in.... Hey on the brightside? be glad you are being hit on? The one time I went out I wasn't even noticed in either type of bar so......
What's confusing Tiny?
I won't lie I didn't follow the links of the terms and maybe I should but I'm bit confused on what they mean..... But I don't agree with the first term at all... Now that I think about it the second term I don't agree with either....
Of course I can't prove this but I think that there are men and women who might par take it say couples sex... They date and act what ever Straight is but the sex would be gay... So that kinda bashes Term #1.... Maybe this only is aimed at men but how does a bi girl and a straight act differently? Now where this term might get some credence is if one argues that there isn't really and such thing as a man who is Bi they are really gay but just don't really know it and that Denial is so strong they can't over come it....
Now if you believe term #2... That means that if you don't follow Gender Roles you are gay? Not buying that either... So you have no Job and so you watch the kids and the wife makes the money... Then you are gay? Or if you prefer
Soccer in this country.... I don't buy it......
eh? very confusing post.