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01/24/2013 00:00 #57168
If you owned an iPhone, Paul...03/15/2012 10:53 #56224
Tree TentAnother attempt at this concept:
http://www.tentsile.com/gallery.html
Obvious problems include finding trees in the right place, right spacing, and right strength to set it up (with setup being no small task itself), but seems like a step up from the last one we saw. I'm less optimistic that a better option exists than the classic ground-gear, but not less wanting.
http://www.tentsile.com/gallery.html
Obvious problems include finding trees in the right place, right spacing, and right strength to set it up (with setup being no small task itself), but seems like a step up from the last one we saw. I'm less optimistic that a better option exists than the classic ground-gear, but not less wanting.
metalpeter - 03/15/12 19:49
So I admit that I don't camp...... Went when i was a kid.... But there would be one other issue that might be kinda important to factor in..... Now before I get to that I admit it is a cool idea just not so sure on the getting up there and then down...... That would be weather.... If it is windy you are a sail on the tree of course rain ads more weight also.... I'm not saying it is a bad idea.... I think it is a cool idea but doing it safely must be a challenge ..... I also kinda wonder how things like Birds and bats react to a tent in a tree.....
So I admit that I don't camp...... Went when i was a kid.... But there would be one other issue that might be kinda important to factor in..... Now before I get to that I admit it is a cool idea just not so sure on the getting up there and then down...... That would be weather.... If it is windy you are a sail on the tree of course rain ads more weight also.... I'm not saying it is a bad idea.... I think it is a cool idea but doing it safely must be a challenge ..... I also kinda wonder how things like Birds and bats react to a tent in a tree.....
01/23/2012 22:19 #55976
Beauty and CheeringSo, I think a lot of people here will enjoy this:
I feel pretty confident this guy will be doing great things, of which we will probably come across again.
On a slightly related albeit completely different topic of discussion, this is one of a continuing series of performances that make me want to shush the crowd.
In western culture, particularly American, there is an urge (possibly even a responsibility) to vocally express approval of a performance while it is ongoing. While the energy in some events, such as a football game, justifies this action, there are many others where it seems to obviously detract from the performance and yet we do so anyway.
This performance was a stark example. The music is very intimate, the motions gentle, and the crowd jarring in comparison.
This happens on a lot of things that I consume these days, though perhaps that's because I've been watching so much dancing material. But, even things like mix martial arts see very different crowd responses in some parts of the world. Specifically, in Japan, they treat MMA as we treat an opera, a hush over the entire crowd, with the silence being broken only on the most spectacular and unexpected occurrences. While I couldn't argue against others cheering in this case, I personally appreciate the silence far more; I feel it expresses a deeper respect for the contest taking place, and eliminates the feel of blood-lust in the crowd (and, indirectly, the community).
I'm curious how others feel about crowd cheers and jeers.
This is actually a topic that I considered writing about during this last break before I was sidetracked. At some point I'd like to research the origins and growth of this phenomenon.
I feel pretty confident this guy will be doing great things, of which we will probably come across again.
On a slightly related albeit completely different topic of discussion, this is one of a continuing series of performances that make me want to shush the crowd.
In western culture, particularly American, there is an urge (possibly even a responsibility) to vocally express approval of a performance while it is ongoing. While the energy in some events, such as a football game, justifies this action, there are many others where it seems to obviously detract from the performance and yet we do so anyway.
This performance was a stark example. The music is very intimate, the motions gentle, and the crowd jarring in comparison.
This happens on a lot of things that I consume these days, though perhaps that's because I've been watching so much dancing material. But, even things like mix martial arts see very different crowd responses in some parts of the world. Specifically, in Japan, they treat MMA as we treat an opera, a hush over the entire crowd, with the silence being broken only on the most spectacular and unexpected occurrences. While I couldn't argue against others cheering in this case, I personally appreciate the silence far more; I feel it expresses a deeper respect for the contest taking place, and eliminates the feel of blood-lust in the crowd (and, indirectly, the community).
I'm curious how others feel about crowd cheers and jeers.
This is actually a topic that I considered writing about during this last break before I was sidetracked. At some point I'd like to research the origins and growth of this phenomenon.
terry - 01/25/12 16:37
Hm, I don't mind the cheering. I have at times found cheering very annoying. For example during a soft piece of a musical performance where you can't hear the music over the cheering. But in this case, I think the audience zeal only adds to the performance. As a performer in a past life I can tell you that audience feedback is terribly important and can turn a so-so performance into something much more.
Hm, I don't mind the cheering. I have at times found cheering very annoying. For example during a soft piece of a musical performance where you can't hear the music over the cheering. But in this case, I think the audience zeal only adds to the performance. As a performer in a past life I can tell you that audience feedback is terribly important and can turn a so-so performance into something much more.
metalpeter - 01/24/12 20:13
Yeah but what if the guy was not making a noise just video taping...HA To me this video is kinda like if one is at a musical and the one person sings and then they clap and yell before the other person sings back?
Yeah but what if the guy was not making a noise just video taping...HA To me this video is kinda like if one is at a musical and the one person sings and then they clap and yell before the other person sings back?
metalpeter - 01/24/12 20:02
I agree that cheering since the music doesn't stop should be held till it ends....
I agree that cheering since the music doesn't stop should be held till it ends....
tinypliny - 01/24/12 19:05
Oh and I have also fallen asleep and according to a bitter past friend, snored during a performance.
Oh and I have also fallen asleep and according to a bitter past friend, snored during a performance.
tinypliny - 01/24/12 19:02
Really? I had no idea there was pressure to cheer particularly in the US. Who knew.
On the other hand, I might not have noticed. I think I fall clearly into the selfish bin based on your classification. And I don't know if I can change it. I have walked out in the middle of plays/shows/films because I didn't support the concept anymore or been completely revolted/bored or both, cheered entirely too much, hooted at the stage, whooped and headbanged, got into fights (that was in my metal stage), thrown confetti, danced like a loon. You name an atrocious audience act and I have done it. ;-)
Really? I had no idea there was pressure to cheer particularly in the US. Who knew.
On the other hand, I might not have noticed. I think I fall clearly into the selfish bin based on your classification. And I don't know if I can change it. I have walked out in the middle of plays/shows/films because I didn't support the concept anymore or been completely revolted/bored or both, cheered entirely too much, hooted at the stage, whooped and headbanged, got into fights (that was in my metal stage), thrown confetti, danced like a loon. You name an atrocious audience act and I have done it. ;-)
tinypliny - 01/24/12 18:55
I watched that video again! I initially wanted to rush out and get that huge hoop and try it but I am now reconsidering. I get motion sick even on tame car rides! I think this may not be the sport for me....
I watched that video again! I initially wanted to rush out and get that huge hoop and try it but I am now reconsidering. I get motion sick even on tame car rides! I think this may not be the sport for me....
YesThatCasey - 01/24/12 18:46
I imagine he has puked more times than he can count, heh. But, like Ballet dancers, his body has adjusted.
I imagine he has puked more times than he can count, heh. But, like Ballet dancers, his body has adjusted.
YesThatCasey - 01/24/12 18:44
While I don't expect everyone to share my mindset, I do think it's quite selfish to ignore the cares and wants of those around you, so we are approaching this from very different perspectives.
As you touched on, the will of the crowd will change depending on culture, the quality of the performance, and the individuals personality. What I'm suggesting is that currently, in our culture, there seems to be an excessive pressure to cheer performances. That implies that there are plenty of times where cheering is not only acceptable, but appropriate, and possibly unavoidable. I don't want to suggest that any of that needs to change.
What does bother me is when these responses occur without consideration of whole picture. When people feel that by not cheering or laughing they are somehow letting down the entertainers. Similarly, I don't want performers to think that the silence of the crowd means they are not entertaining them. Neither one of these needs to be true; we are forcing these beliefs onto people.
A comedy show is a clear example of an event where the audience will always respond vocally, and where silence could be construed as failure. That is quite different from the performance above. I equate what happened there with sitting on an isolated beach, sharing a tender moment with a girl, and having some guy rush up and shout "WHOOOP!" out of nowhere. Not only is it completely out of place, but it takes away from the emotion you are experiencing.
This performance brings out at least two things: amazing physical prowess, and a tender expression of emotion. The cheers ignore and ruin half of the performance as far as I'm concerned.
While I don't expect everyone to share my mindset, I do think it's quite selfish to ignore the cares and wants of those around you, so we are approaching this from very different perspectives.
As you touched on, the will of the crowd will change depending on culture, the quality of the performance, and the individuals personality. What I'm suggesting is that currently, in our culture, there seems to be an excessive pressure to cheer performances. That implies that there are plenty of times where cheering is not only acceptable, but appropriate, and possibly unavoidable. I don't want to suggest that any of that needs to change.
What does bother me is when these responses occur without consideration of whole picture. When people feel that by not cheering or laughing they are somehow letting down the entertainers. Similarly, I don't want performers to think that the silence of the crowd means they are not entertaining them. Neither one of these needs to be true; we are forcing these beliefs onto people.
A comedy show is a clear example of an event where the audience will always respond vocally, and where silence could be construed as failure. That is quite different from the performance above. I equate what happened there with sitting on an isolated beach, sharing a tender moment with a girl, and having some guy rush up and shout "WHOOOP!" out of nowhere. Not only is it completely out of place, but it takes away from the emotion you are experiencing.
This performance brings out at least two things: amazing physical prowess, and a tender expression of emotion. The cheers ignore and ruin half of the performance as far as I'm concerned.
tinypliny - 01/24/12 18:42
Okay, try this experiment. Silence the soundtrack and play Kashmir (either Ofra Haza or the original over the video)!! It feels like a completely different performance. :O)
Okay, try this experiment. Silence the soundtrack and play Kashmir (either Ofra Haza or the original over the video)!! It feels like a completely different performance. :O)
tinypliny - 01/24/12 18:40
I cannot believe that bloke is not nauseous after all that spinning. He has some gut control!
I cannot believe that bloke is not nauseous after all that spinning. He has some gut control!
tinypliny - 01/24/12 18:10
LOL, I often yell at the screen.. like all the time and laugh like a maniac (probably why my neighbour doesn't like me so much!)
I often went to heavy metal concerts back home. I think crowd participation plays an big role in those concerts. Whole sections of audience often sing missing lines and phrases and there is this whole call-and-answer-with-chorus section to many songs.
I admit I feel somewhat out of place when the audience is too quiet. I love it when the whole theatre claps, chants etc during random movies and plays. The last time I was at a movie (bad choice, btw) many women were crying. I reached over and patted the hand of one woman who was really losing it. It was the highlight of that whole movie-going experience for me. Some shows like Fuerza Bruta rely on how the audience responds.
Isn't fighting all about competition and insanity of it all? I would totally shout my lungs out if I were into some fight! :) (which I am not, but just sayin...)
so I think it not only depends on the culture, it depends on how you feel about the performance, what kind of a person you are and in general, whether you care two hoots about who else is watching any show with you (I could not care less). I once gave a long and crazy standing ovation at a classical piano concert when there was no one else even willing to stand. After the show, at the reception, the pianist came and thanked me for clapping so hard. It was funny, and no I didn't know the pianist before the show.
LOL, I often yell at the screen.. like all the time and laugh like a maniac (probably why my neighbour doesn't like me so much!)
I often went to heavy metal concerts back home. I think crowd participation plays an big role in those concerts. Whole sections of audience often sing missing lines and phrases and there is this whole call-and-answer-with-chorus section to many songs.
I admit I feel somewhat out of place when the audience is too quiet. I love it when the whole theatre claps, chants etc during random movies and plays. The last time I was at a movie (bad choice, btw) many women were crying. I reached over and patted the hand of one woman who was really losing it. It was the highlight of that whole movie-going experience for me. Some shows like Fuerza Bruta rely on how the audience responds.
Isn't fighting all about competition and insanity of it all? I would totally shout my lungs out if I were into some fight! :) (which I am not, but just sayin...)
so I think it not only depends on the culture, it depends on how you feel about the performance, what kind of a person you are and in general, whether you care two hoots about who else is watching any show with you (I could not care less). I once gave a long and crazy standing ovation at a classical piano concert when there was no one else even willing to stand. After the show, at the reception, the pianist came and thanked me for clapping so hard. It was funny, and no I didn't know the pianist before the show.
metalpeter - 01/24/12 17:31
Now but I feel like having fun so.... That part of being Silent is part of the culture or at least it was... How I know this I have no idea... But on the subway you can't/Don't talk... That is the reason why texting got started... They had phones that slide or and flipped open with key pads.... But part of it was also the phone companies over there where if I understood what I saw correctly that charged a flat rate for text.... So Part of me thinks that it is just part of their culture and so that caries on to sports?
But there is another part of me that thinks but no cause we shut up for some sports like Tennis and Golf and maybe Gymnastics...... So maybe it is a tradition thing?
Just tossing a few idea out there.... I think that as Americans we are taught you like something clap.... Look at sports like Monster trucks and Freestyle Motocross you are supposed to get loud (like they can really hear you over the engines well maybe they can) as they do it so they do bigger and better tricks so they get pumped.... This will sometimes lead the everyone cheering at a show when the song starts or intro ends or at the end of the song but not when it is 100% over?
So maybe this way we are taught carry over into areas where it shouldn't ?
Again not only in Pro Wrestling, But with all kinds of live concerts now, and even (I don't mean heckling )Like improve comedy their is crowd participation and so that has to be at least a part of the factor...
Of course I have no way to figure out what causes what.... But being at home watching sports and yelling at the TV or watching you tube may factor in as well?
Now but I feel like having fun so.... That part of being Silent is part of the culture or at least it was... How I know this I have no idea... But on the subway you can't/Don't talk... That is the reason why texting got started... They had phones that slide or and flipped open with key pads.... But part of it was also the phone companies over there where if I understood what I saw correctly that charged a flat rate for text.... So Part of me thinks that it is just part of their culture and so that caries on to sports?
But there is another part of me that thinks but no cause we shut up for some sports like Tennis and Golf and maybe Gymnastics...... So maybe it is a tradition thing?
Just tossing a few idea out there.... I think that as Americans we are taught you like something clap.... Look at sports like Monster trucks and Freestyle Motocross you are supposed to get loud (like they can really hear you over the engines well maybe they can) as they do it so they do bigger and better tricks so they get pumped.... This will sometimes lead the everyone cheering at a show when the song starts or intro ends or at the end of the song but not when it is 100% over?
So maybe this way we are taught carry over into areas where it shouldn't ?
Again not only in Pro Wrestling, But with all kinds of live concerts now, and even (I don't mean heckling )Like improve comedy their is crowd participation and so that has to be at least a part of the factor...
Of course I have no way to figure out what causes what.... But being at home watching sports and yelling at the TV or watching you tube may factor in as well?
metalpeter - 01/24/12 17:18
Hold on wait a second I agree with you... Hold on that can't be correct.... HA
I have never seen the Japanese MMA but what I have watched is Japanese Wrestling Now mind you in was some years ago back when ECW was around ok maybe a year past that.... Now culture does change over time.... But it was the same way big move over big move and no sound I was like what... End of the match clapping or in a death match on nails nothing , barbed wire boards nothing, only a cheer like you said when something huge happened like the guy was thrown into the corner into the lights that are lite and they explode......
Hold on wait a second I agree with you... Hold on that can't be correct.... HA
I have never seen the Japanese MMA but what I have watched is Japanese Wrestling Now mind you in was some years ago back when ECW was around ok maybe a year past that.... Now culture does change over time.... But it was the same way big move over big move and no sound I was like what... End of the match clapping or in a death match on nails nothing , barbed wire boards nothing, only a cheer like you said when something huge happened like the guy was thrown into the corner into the lights that are lite and they explode......
tinypliny - 01/24/12 11:25
I was talking with a tango artist on the way to NYC last year. Tango is a fairly classical performance art and some traditionalists in tango place emphasis on silence during the performance. The artist I was talking to also performs in off-broadway shows in the city. She was telling me how she gets incredibly upset or nervous if the crowd does not clap or cheer during her dances - be it tango or other dances. I had forgotten about this encounter till you brought it up. It was such a fun time talking with her - best 1 hour in jetblue.
I was talking with a tango artist on the way to NYC last year. Tango is a fairly classical performance art and some traditionalists in tango place emphasis on silence during the performance. The artist I was talking to also performs in off-broadway shows in the city. She was telling me how she gets incredibly upset or nervous if the crowd does not clap or cheer during her dances - be it tango or other dances. I had forgotten about this encounter till you brought it up. It was such a fun time talking with her - best 1 hour in jetblue.
tinypliny - 01/24/12 09:31
Such a beautiful video! Thanks for sharing. :)
I think performance arts such as this one.. or things like CIrque de Soleil feed on audience enthusiasm and cheers, however loud they may be. What if the sound track was a slightly heavier cello track or maybe a Hendrix solo? Maybe the more classical bent of the music made the crowd response seem jarring,
Such a beautiful video! Thanks for sharing. :)
I think performance arts such as this one.. or things like CIrque de Soleil feed on audience enthusiasm and cheers, however loud they may be. What if the sound track was a slightly heavier cello track or maybe a Hendrix solo? Maybe the more classical bent of the music made the crowd response seem jarring,
01/12/2012 19:30 #55894
Hetero/homonormativity((Edit: apparently this isn't coming across as I intended. The point of the post was to begin a discussion on these concepts. This is not intended to be an attack on anyone.))
These two terms are still in the growing stages and, as a result, seem to vary in what I’ve read. I’ll provide a short (and perhaps poor) summary on the part that is currently important to me:
Homonormativity asserts that everybody with any lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (homosexual) connection is and acts as if they were homosexual.
Heteronormativity asserts that heterosexuals fall within traditional gender roles and attitudes.
More reading, if so inclined:
Homonormativity
Heteronormativity
At this point in my life I am surrounded by gay friends. I have 2 circles of largely gay friends, and another circle of every-type-of-bisexuality friends. I don’t really have any strictly straight circles that I’m around with any regularity. My two closest friends are gay.
This isn’t something that I think about much. It doesn’t matter to me. I don’t hang out with people because of their sexuality; I hang out with them because I think they are good people and I enjoy their company, and hopefully that feeling is reciprocal.
But, occasionally, and especially recently, I find that my sexuality is being questioned.
I am straight. But, since I am often in gay bars with my gay friends, and not ‘acting’ as straight as most other straight people, and not walking around with a girl on my arm, the notion that I can be straight seems to be difficult to grasp.
This is nowhere near the first time I have faced this attitude. I generally take it as a compliment; I hear ‘you are an individual’. That’s cool with me. I have fun joking around with it; pushing the line where I can for entertainment’s sake.
It’s more difficult to do that when a person’s attitude towards you changes just because you aren’t what they think you should be.
I don’t care that my personality doesn’t match what people think it should for a straight person. I’m damn well not going to act differently just because someone thinks I need to in order to prove who I am. It pisses me off that a person who belongs to a group that is still frequently persecuted, and who I have fought for regardless of the fact that I myself am not directly included in that group, is then going to turn around and give me attitude because I don’t fit in a particular mold. Insinuating that I’m not being honest, either with others or myself, is really insulting.
How is it that humans so consistently, and quickly, lose sight of the place we just left?
These two terms are still in the growing stages and, as a result, seem to vary in what I’ve read. I’ll provide a short (and perhaps poor) summary on the part that is currently important to me:
Homonormativity asserts that everybody with any lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (homosexual) connection is and acts as if they were homosexual.
Heteronormativity asserts that heterosexuals fall within traditional gender roles and attitudes.
More reading, if so inclined:
Homonormativity
Heteronormativity
At this point in my life I am surrounded by gay friends. I have 2 circles of largely gay friends, and another circle of every-type-of-bisexuality friends. I don’t really have any strictly straight circles that I’m around with any regularity. My two closest friends are gay.
This isn’t something that I think about much. It doesn’t matter to me. I don’t hang out with people because of their sexuality; I hang out with them because I think they are good people and I enjoy their company, and hopefully that feeling is reciprocal.
But, occasionally, and especially recently, I find that my sexuality is being questioned.
I am straight. But, since I am often in gay bars with my gay friends, and not ‘acting’ as straight as most other straight people, and not walking around with a girl on my arm, the notion that I can be straight seems to be difficult to grasp.
This is nowhere near the first time I have faced this attitude. I generally take it as a compliment; I hear ‘you are an individual’. That’s cool with me. I have fun joking around with it; pushing the line where I can for entertainment’s sake.
It’s more difficult to do that when a person’s attitude towards you changes just because you aren’t what they think you should be.
I don’t care that my personality doesn’t match what people think it should for a straight person. I’m damn well not going to act differently just because someone thinks I need to in order to prove who I am. It pisses me off that a person who belongs to a group that is still frequently persecuted, and who I have fought for regardless of the fact that I myself am not directly included in that group, is then going to turn around and give me attitude because I don’t fit in a particular mold. Insinuating that I’m not being honest, either with others or myself, is really insulting.
How is it that humans so consistently, and quickly, lose sight of the place we just left?
metalpeter - 01/13/12 16:55
Now the next thing I'm going to say or would that be write may get a few people upset with me but it is just my view from what I have seen growing up....
Mexicans and Puerto Ricans don't get along, Island and City PR's donate get along, Jews think they are the only people ever oppressed, I have heard lesbians hate men, Blacks hate whites (cracker) and visa Versa, Africans Hate sons of slaves, Catholics hate baptists, Different kinds of Muslims kill each other in Iraq..... My point is that everyone even if they don't know it or even if it is a good one holds sterotypes... So if I was in a gay bar and someone thought I was gay and they didn't believe me when I said I wasn't there would be some reasons for them to think this just based on sterotypes.... But also from a logic perspective it would make more sense of "Oh he is just trying to turn me down" "he is gay but doesn't know it" "Oh he isn't out to everyone in the group" The lie from a logic perspective makes more sense.......
I guess the thing at the End of the day is that we all look at our selves one way and people look at us a different way.... Now often to see who we are really and not whom we think we are we have to try and look at it from the other persons Perspective or one out side of our selves.... Don't have a real example other then when we think back on something from our past and go you know what I really was a Jerk but we couldn't think of it then.... Best example is when someone says I'm not like everyone else and they shave their head and get all these piercings and get a leather Jacket and they are like the only kid or only one of about 3 in there huge school who looks like that.... Then they go to a concert in town or even warped tour and there and hundreds of people dressed and looking just like that same sub culture..... Now in school they are the weirdo the out cast but at that show they part of a culture... Yes it has been called the hot topic culture .....
Now the next thing I'm going to say or would that be write may get a few people upset with me but it is just my view from what I have seen growing up....
Mexicans and Puerto Ricans don't get along, Island and City PR's donate get along, Jews think they are the only people ever oppressed, I have heard lesbians hate men, Blacks hate whites (cracker) and visa Versa, Africans Hate sons of slaves, Catholics hate baptists, Different kinds of Muslims kill each other in Iraq..... My point is that everyone even if they don't know it or even if it is a good one holds sterotypes... So if I was in a gay bar and someone thought I was gay and they didn't believe me when I said I wasn't there would be some reasons for them to think this just based on sterotypes.... But also from a logic perspective it would make more sense of "Oh he is just trying to turn me down" "he is gay but doesn't know it" "Oh he isn't out to everyone in the group" The lie from a logic perspective makes more sense.......
I guess the thing at the End of the day is that we all look at our selves one way and people look at us a different way.... Now often to see who we are really and not whom we think we are we have to try and look at it from the other persons Perspective or one out side of our selves.... Don't have a real example other then when we think back on something from our past and go you know what I really was a Jerk but we couldn't think of it then.... Best example is when someone says I'm not like everyone else and they shave their head and get all these piercings and get a leather Jacket and they are like the only kid or only one of about 3 in there huge school who looks like that.... Then they go to a concert in town or even warped tour and there and hundreds of people dressed and looking just like that same sub culture..... Now in school they are the weirdo the out cast but at that show they part of a culture... Yes it has been called the hot topic culture .....
metalpeter - 01/13/12 16:39
Just have to ad my two Cents or maybe it is more like a Dollar...
@(e:tinypliny) there is kinda a joke but the term trisexual means you will try anything once.....
Just have to ad my two Cents or maybe it is more like a Dollar...
@(e:tinypliny) there is kinda a joke but the term trisexual means you will try anything once.....
flacidness - 01/13/12 16:35
Casey I'm not doing this here.
Casey I'm not doing this here.
YesThatCasey - 01/13/12 14:34
Lauren, it looks like during my reading I may have started to overlap the two concepts. I think some of this was due to articles and treatise I was reading, as I was not familiar with either term beforehand. Considering the expansion of homonormativity, and the relative infancy of these terms, I wouldn’t be surprised if heteronormativity expanded. Then again, maybe there are other terms that more accurately reflect these concepts.
I found Duggan’s treatise very interesting, but more specialized (and politicized) than that which was being used by many other articles and sites. The term was in use for several years before she became heavily associated with it. I love what she is trying to convey; I’m just not sure it encompassed everything the term was being used to address.
Tiny, I definitely don’t care in the sense that I want peoples’ perception to match the reality exactly as it is. That’s not a reasonable expectation, I am aware. I guess my caring starts when misperception influences actions that potentially have a negative impact on the way people treat each other. I mean that in a general context, not just personal. For those reasons, I figured these concepts (which may not match exactly what I was initially thinking about) were healthy to think about.
TK, I already made it clear this was not a public discussion between myself and anyone, and added the blurb at the start of the post to try and further highlight this.
As for your comment, you definitely are not giving equal weight to all the things I have shared with you. First of all, I don’t do a great deal of complaining about being single. I occasionally mention it; it is on my mind. However, I have also very clearly stated why I am single. I’m a little annoyed that I have to put this out here right now, but I have said that being a 36 year old unemployed man without any clear direction in my life, lacking a car, and being tight on my wallet, doesn’t exactly make me a hot catch. My confidence is at an extremely low point, the lowest its ever been. I’m not really trying to find a woman right now.
When I bring up that I’m single, I think it should be easy to understand why I don’t accompany it with these facts every single time. I try to joke around about it, and keep the mood happy. If you expect me to never mention it, that’s a pretty unfair expectation. I’ve never asked anyone to feel sorry for me, so don’t put that on me. That’s your belief.
I also don’t go to bars to meet women; I go to bars to hang out with friends. I feel like you already know that I’m a shy person, and I don’t flirt. I’ve never started a relationship in a bar. Though, if I was going to, it probably would be in a gay bar/club. These are the places I get hit on by women the most (and I mean, by a lot). Last time at Cathode I had a woman aggressively hitting on me. The last time at Marcellas I was grinding on a girl (something I rarely do) who came up to me and left the place with digits from another girl. Of course, since I’m not really putting myself out there, this is all secondary to the company that is the reason I am there. That, and the better music.
Back on topic, the notion of a “normal straight†is my point. This is a misplaced, even useless, concept. When it comes to sexuality, the only thing that really matters is who you are attracted to/sleep with. It has nothing to do with who you hang out with, what places you frequent, or any other detail really. Interpreting unrelated actions as a sign of sexuality when there is ample evidence and sincere statements to the contrary is not conducive to an informed opinion.
Paul, you are dead-on with the free-time pressures. Rebecca is someone who I would be around much more, but she works two jobs, has a child to care for, and very little free time as a result. Michaelene is in a similar situation, as are many others. On top of the time, there is the fact that I don’t enjoy being around children all that much. Gay people tend to be free of these problems. Glad you brought this point up.
I’m pretty much a fan of the idea that sexual orientation is an outdated tool, its usefulness lost by the energy we need to expend in defining it and it’s necessary incompleteness regardless. That said, while you may be ok with either gender, there are still people who are not. I imagine there must be some people you do not find attractive. I think that can be related to how some people are not attracted to particular genders; they just happen to be different factors.
I understand the notion of extending personal traits to others. However, this is often what gets people into trouble when it is taken too far, particularly when evidence to the contrary is ignored. I suppose it doesn’t help when you experience people who say one thing and eventually do another. Unfortunately, I don’t know a way to really separate those two, other than trying to measure the sincerity and honesty behind actions and words. But, extrapolating experience from a small group and applying that to everyone is definitely not the answer. This can be related to a wide range of things; for example, religious people who believe that non-believers just haven’t heard the word of God, instead of respecting their differing views and the thought they have put into their worldview.
I should be clear that it isn’t a problem to question someone. Inquiry is how we grow. I think the problem is when we ignore the response for selfish or irrational reasons. Assuming someone is insincere in their response can have a detrimental impact on your perception of them, sometimes before you realize that it’s happening. This can have a negative impact on how people interact, which I hope people can reduce by being conscious of these natural tendencies. It’s ok if we don’t understand something, but filling that lack of understanding with an unsupported belief is not ok.
Oh, and kudos for working in an NWA reference…that was definitely unexpected. ;o)
Lauren, it looks like during my reading I may have started to overlap the two concepts. I think some of this was due to articles and treatise I was reading, as I was not familiar with either term beforehand. Considering the expansion of homonormativity, and the relative infancy of these terms, I wouldn’t be surprised if heteronormativity expanded. Then again, maybe there are other terms that more accurately reflect these concepts.
I found Duggan’s treatise very interesting, but more specialized (and politicized) than that which was being used by many other articles and sites. The term was in use for several years before she became heavily associated with it. I love what she is trying to convey; I’m just not sure it encompassed everything the term was being used to address.
Tiny, I definitely don’t care in the sense that I want peoples’ perception to match the reality exactly as it is. That’s not a reasonable expectation, I am aware. I guess my caring starts when misperception influences actions that potentially have a negative impact on the way people treat each other. I mean that in a general context, not just personal. For those reasons, I figured these concepts (which may not match exactly what I was initially thinking about) were healthy to think about.
TK, I already made it clear this was not a public discussion between myself and anyone, and added the blurb at the start of the post to try and further highlight this.
As for your comment, you definitely are not giving equal weight to all the things I have shared with you. First of all, I don’t do a great deal of complaining about being single. I occasionally mention it; it is on my mind. However, I have also very clearly stated why I am single. I’m a little annoyed that I have to put this out here right now, but I have said that being a 36 year old unemployed man without any clear direction in my life, lacking a car, and being tight on my wallet, doesn’t exactly make me a hot catch. My confidence is at an extremely low point, the lowest its ever been. I’m not really trying to find a woman right now.
When I bring up that I’m single, I think it should be easy to understand why I don’t accompany it with these facts every single time. I try to joke around about it, and keep the mood happy. If you expect me to never mention it, that’s a pretty unfair expectation. I’ve never asked anyone to feel sorry for me, so don’t put that on me. That’s your belief.
I also don’t go to bars to meet women; I go to bars to hang out with friends. I feel like you already know that I’m a shy person, and I don’t flirt. I’ve never started a relationship in a bar. Though, if I was going to, it probably would be in a gay bar/club. These are the places I get hit on by women the most (and I mean, by a lot). Last time at Cathode I had a woman aggressively hitting on me. The last time at Marcellas I was grinding on a girl (something I rarely do) who came up to me and left the place with digits from another girl. Of course, since I’m not really putting myself out there, this is all secondary to the company that is the reason I am there. That, and the better music.
Back on topic, the notion of a “normal straight†is my point. This is a misplaced, even useless, concept. When it comes to sexuality, the only thing that really matters is who you are attracted to/sleep with. It has nothing to do with who you hang out with, what places you frequent, or any other detail really. Interpreting unrelated actions as a sign of sexuality when there is ample evidence and sincere statements to the contrary is not conducive to an informed opinion.
Paul, you are dead-on with the free-time pressures. Rebecca is someone who I would be around much more, but she works two jobs, has a child to care for, and very little free time as a result. Michaelene is in a similar situation, as are many others. On top of the time, there is the fact that I don’t enjoy being around children all that much. Gay people tend to be free of these problems. Glad you brought this point up.
I’m pretty much a fan of the idea that sexual orientation is an outdated tool, its usefulness lost by the energy we need to expend in defining it and it’s necessary incompleteness regardless. That said, while you may be ok with either gender, there are still people who are not. I imagine there must be some people you do not find attractive. I think that can be related to how some people are not attracted to particular genders; they just happen to be different factors.
I understand the notion of extending personal traits to others. However, this is often what gets people into trouble when it is taken too far, particularly when evidence to the contrary is ignored. I suppose it doesn’t help when you experience people who say one thing and eventually do another. Unfortunately, I don’t know a way to really separate those two, other than trying to measure the sincerity and honesty behind actions and words. But, extrapolating experience from a small group and applying that to everyone is definitely not the answer. This can be related to a wide range of things; for example, religious people who believe that non-believers just haven’t heard the word of God, instead of respecting their differing views and the thought they have put into their worldview.
I should be clear that it isn’t a problem to question someone. Inquiry is how we grow. I think the problem is when we ignore the response for selfish or irrational reasons. Assuming someone is insincere in their response can have a detrimental impact on your perception of them, sometimes before you realize that it’s happening. This can have a negative impact on how people interact, which I hope people can reduce by being conscious of these natural tendencies. It’s ok if we don’t understand something, but filling that lack of understanding with an unsupported belief is not ok.
Oh, and kudos for working in an NWA reference…that was definitely unexpected. ;o)
tinypliny - 01/13/12 14:18
Okay I had to take that test.. and apparently I am a 3.
Okay I had to take that test.. and apparently I am a 3.
matthew - 01/13/12 13:15
Just for the record, (e:paul), I don't want you having sex with other men any more than I not wanting you to have sex with other women. So I don't see how I factor into your lack of vaginal sex. And, I personally think the Kinsey scale is utter bullshit. But please carry one, this is interesting.
Just for the record, (e:paul), I don't want you having sex with other men any more than I not wanting you to have sex with other women. So I don't see how I factor into your lack of vaginal sex. And, I personally think the Kinsey scale is utter bullshit. But please carry one, this is interesting.
flacidness - 01/13/12 12:39
I really like that Paul LOL. I have had sex with women a few times and still do not like it. I have given it the old college try for sure :) I believe i have posted about it. Once in 2007 and twice in 2009. oops!
I really like that Paul LOL. I have had sex with women a few times and still do not like it. I have given it the old college try for sure :) I believe i have posted about it. Once in 2007 and twice in 2009. oops!
paul - 01/13/12 12:24
By polictical reasons, I just meant I wanted to find out the backstory first so I didn't end up in the middle of an argument between two friends. Even this time I found myself deleting so much. I have become a self-censored person. I never wanted to be this way - I am going to have to work on it.
Here is one good non-sexual reason that a straight man might surround himself with gay people. It might really have more to do with gay people generally having more free time and less risk aversion due to lack of children. It seems that is still a primary goal of yours. I mean you have even more gay friends than I do. You also have more free time. Maybe there is correlation?
That being said, it is hard for me to understand not being attracted to either sex. I guess it all comes down to nothing grosses me out. I feel that once I bond with someone there is a distinct possibility I am going to want to have sex with them. You can pretty much ask any friend I ever had. Gender doesnt play a big role in this. This doesnt mean I have gotten with every friend I ever had, but I probably thought about it if they cross a certain attractiveness threshold and closeness. Some people say this makes me a whore. I don't care.
Looking back my early sexuality 12-15 was greatly influenced by a whole bunch of circle jerks with a bunch of different groups of guys. I didn't consider those gay experiences because multiple people were involved and straight porn or dares was the driving factor.
Around age 15 I started having sex with women. I had a lot of sex from 15-20. Its a miracle that I did not become a teen father. Honestly, during that time I really didn't think about guys in a sexual way. I can't decide if it was because I was repressing it or just not feeling it. Based on some journals I found, I think religion might have played a role. That wasn't to say guys were not hitting on me.
It wasnt until I was 20 and in Germany that I had my first bromosexual experience. I met this guy who very similar. We both had casual girlfriends at the time. We spend a lot of time together - dancing, smoking pot, hiking around the city, the beach, etc. All my favorite things. We were bros. He was so hot, I know this not just based on personal preference but because every girl wanted him.
One time we went dancing and afterwards I crashed at his place. We were just laying around listening to NWA when this song came on :::link::: If you dont know the song just listen because it all makes much more sense afterwards. I immediately noticed he had a boner in his tight black levis 501s. I reached over and a few minutes later I found out what an uncircumsized dick is all about.
After that, there were no more barriers and pretty much anyone was a possible target for my sexual desires. I found most guys, regardless of their sexual identity, would go for it if we were isolated enough, they were just horny enough, or they were not getting any. I think TK has found this too. To be honest, the straighter, the more challenge, the better. Its part of some straight men fantasize about lesbians. Its not just a woman, its a woman that normally doesn't desire men, and has made a particular exception for just for you. Many gay men feel that about straight men. Out of all of the numerous attempts, only three times didn't work out and I only lost one friend (and that was on like the tenth try). I think the fact that I was dating and having sex with a bunch of woman at the time made it even easier because there was not the threat of me being a gay man factoring in on their decision.
For a while I tried to maintain two separate relationships at once. One with a man and one with a woman. I was up front with both of them. Obviously, that could not sustain itself. After that point (1998) I always dated two people at once, I just realized they had to also be in the relationship. Some people would say that makes me a freak. I don't care.
The real defining factor in me stopping to have sex with women was beginning to date matt who is much more strongly on the higher end of the Kinsey scale, as I think TK is.
As with everything I tend to apply my personal experience to everyone else. Its weird in this case because I dont understand either side. I cannot understand how TK is sexually disgusted by woman, and I cannot understand how you are sexually unattracted to men. I can respect it, I just cannot understand. To TK I would say, we all came out of there and how can you not love breasts. To you I would say lets not pretend there isnt a penis in your hand everyday, lol.
At the same time I understand how it feels to have everyone else determine what they think you are. I feel like now every just assumes i am Kinsey 6 because I have two male partners. The truth is I limit myself for other reasons. And the fact that people can limit themselves for reasons besides sexual identity is what makes people question other people's identity to begin with. Not that I am questioning you. Okay, okay, I would like to se eyou around one asian homo just to make sure, lol.
By polictical reasons, I just meant I wanted to find out the backstory first so I didn't end up in the middle of an argument between two friends. Even this time I found myself deleting so much. I have become a self-censored person. I never wanted to be this way - I am going to have to work on it.
Here is one good non-sexual reason that a straight man might surround himself with gay people. It might really have more to do with gay people generally having more free time and less risk aversion due to lack of children. It seems that is still a primary goal of yours. I mean you have even more gay friends than I do. You also have more free time. Maybe there is correlation?
That being said, it is hard for me to understand not being attracted to either sex. I guess it all comes down to nothing grosses me out. I feel that once I bond with someone there is a distinct possibility I am going to want to have sex with them. You can pretty much ask any friend I ever had. Gender doesnt play a big role in this. This doesnt mean I have gotten with every friend I ever had, but I probably thought about it if they cross a certain attractiveness threshold and closeness. Some people say this makes me a whore. I don't care.
Looking back my early sexuality 12-15 was greatly influenced by a whole bunch of circle jerks with a bunch of different groups of guys. I didn't consider those gay experiences because multiple people were involved and straight porn or dares was the driving factor.
Around age 15 I started having sex with women. I had a lot of sex from 15-20. Its a miracle that I did not become a teen father. Honestly, during that time I really didn't think about guys in a sexual way. I can't decide if it was because I was repressing it or just not feeling it. Based on some journals I found, I think religion might have played a role. That wasn't to say guys were not hitting on me.
It wasnt until I was 20 and in Germany that I had my first bromosexual experience. I met this guy who very similar. We both had casual girlfriends at the time. We spend a lot of time together - dancing, smoking pot, hiking around the city, the beach, etc. All my favorite things. We were bros. He was so hot, I know this not just based on personal preference but because every girl wanted him.
One time we went dancing and afterwards I crashed at his place. We were just laying around listening to NWA when this song came on :::link::: If you dont know the song just listen because it all makes much more sense afterwards. I immediately noticed he had a boner in his tight black levis 501s. I reached over and a few minutes later I found out what an uncircumsized dick is all about.
After that, there were no more barriers and pretty much anyone was a possible target for my sexual desires. I found most guys, regardless of their sexual identity, would go for it if we were isolated enough, they were just horny enough, or they were not getting any. I think TK has found this too. To be honest, the straighter, the more challenge, the better. Its part of some straight men fantasize about lesbians. Its not just a woman, its a woman that normally doesn't desire men, and has made a particular exception for just for you. Many gay men feel that about straight men. Out of all of the numerous attempts, only three times didn't work out and I only lost one friend (and that was on like the tenth try). I think the fact that I was dating and having sex with a bunch of woman at the time made it even easier because there was not the threat of me being a gay man factoring in on their decision.
For a while I tried to maintain two separate relationships at once. One with a man and one with a woman. I was up front with both of them. Obviously, that could not sustain itself. After that point (1998) I always dated two people at once, I just realized they had to also be in the relationship. Some people would say that makes me a freak. I don't care.
The real defining factor in me stopping to have sex with women was beginning to date matt who is much more strongly on the higher end of the Kinsey scale, as I think TK is.
As with everything I tend to apply my personal experience to everyone else. Its weird in this case because I dont understand either side. I cannot understand how TK is sexually disgusted by woman, and I cannot understand how you are sexually unattracted to men. I can respect it, I just cannot understand. To TK I would say, we all came out of there and how can you not love breasts. To you I would say lets not pretend there isnt a penis in your hand everyday, lol.
At the same time I understand how it feels to have everyone else determine what they think you are. I feel like now every just assumes i am Kinsey 6 because I have two male partners. The truth is I limit myself for other reasons. And the fact that people can limit themselves for reasons besides sexual identity is what makes people question other people's identity to begin with. Not that I am questioning you. Okay, okay, I would like to se eyou around one asian homo just to make sure, lol.
flacidness - 01/13/12 11:40
its not that that i don't appreciate individuality because i do, more than you would know. My problem is when you complain that you don't get any "Straight" women to be around or sleep with. and you won't if you surround yourself with only gay boys and go to only gay bars. You can totally be around whomever you want but when you're saying certain things and doing other things that "normal" straight guys wouldn't do and i won't go into details. It's gonna make me think and wonder what you're true agenda is. You know know you don't have to prove your sexuality to anybody it's nobodies business but your own, but don't expect people to feel sorry for you and your sex life when you are doing nothing to fix it yourself. I'm gonna stop here because i don't want to say too much. This is a conversation you and i should have had and not posted first.
its not that that i don't appreciate individuality because i do, more than you would know. My problem is when you complain that you don't get any "Straight" women to be around or sleep with. and you won't if you surround yourself with only gay boys and go to only gay bars. You can totally be around whomever you want but when you're saying certain things and doing other things that "normal" straight guys wouldn't do and i won't go into details. It's gonna make me think and wonder what you're true agenda is. You know know you don't have to prove your sexuality to anybody it's nobodies business but your own, but don't expect people to feel sorry for you and your sex life when you are doing nothing to fix it yourself. I'm gonna stop here because i don't want to say too much. This is a conversation you and i should have had and not posted first.
tinypliny - 01/13/12 11:20
OOOOH!! Bring on the bigger responsE!
OOOOH!! Bring on the bigger responsE!
paul - 01/13/12 10:24
I deleted my responses for political reasons. I was not sure who started it so I didn't want to say anything till I knew. I will write a bigger response as soon as I am at a keyboard.
I deleted my responses for political reasons. I was not sure who started it so I didn't want to say anything till I knew. I will write a bigger response as soon as I am at a keyboard.
tinypliny - 01/13/12 10:07
PS: I intentionally wrote I was trisexual-on-a-metaphysical-scale on a super-serious official questionnaire recently. It was so much fun! :)
PS: I intentionally wrote I was trisexual-on-a-metaphysical-scale on a super-serious official questionnaire recently. It was so much fun! :)
tinypliny - 01/13/12 10:04
Comment #67174 --> ohhhhh! I see now. yes, that resolves some confusion.
My solution: Who cares?! You are who you are - straight, gay, bi, tri, confused, stressed, whatever. People will think whatever they want to. The trick is to stand back and enjoy the gossip. ;-)
Comment #67174 --> ohhhhh! I see now. yes, that resolves some confusion.
My solution: Who cares?! You are who you are - straight, gay, bi, tri, confused, stressed, whatever. People will think whatever they want to. The trick is to stand back and enjoy the gossip. ;-)
tinypliny - 01/13/12 09:58
(e:Lauren), I miss your posts and you glamourous husband's, you (e:strip) traitors!
(e:Lauren), I miss your posts and you glamourous husband's, you (e:strip) traitors!
lauren - 01/13/12 06:49
Ok, first I want to clarify the meaning of heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the assumption that ALL people are straight and are therefore treated as such... for example, when I walk into a GYN office and they are flabbergasted that I'm not on birth control or people look at my wedding ring and ask about my husband. Heteronormativity ignores or erases the possibility that people may be something other than straight and is akin to racism in the sense that it is culturally and systematically embedded in the way we think, act, and treat people.
So, that being said, I think the link you gave for the definition of homonormativity is lacking and probably misleading. I found this: HOMONORMATIVITY - ‘A politics that does not contest dominant heteronormative assumptions and institutions, but upholds and sustains them, while promising the possibility of a demobilized gay constituency and a privatized, depoliticized gay culture anchored in domesticity and consumption’ ( L. Duggan 2003 ). So I think what it's saying is that in gay culture homonormativity is the internalization by the gay community of values and stereotypes of what it means to be gay which belong to/have been created by the straight community.
Ug, I have run out of time and have to get ready for work, but thanks for the post, I have been out of the academic loop and haven't heard this term "homonormativity" yet. Interesting concept.
Ok, first I want to clarify the meaning of heteronormativity. Heteronormativity is the assumption that ALL people are straight and are therefore treated as such... for example, when I walk into a GYN office and they are flabbergasted that I'm not on birth control or people look at my wedding ring and ask about my husband. Heteronormativity ignores or erases the possibility that people may be something other than straight and is akin to racism in the sense that it is culturally and systematically embedded in the way we think, act, and treat people.
So, that being said, I think the link you gave for the definition of homonormativity is lacking and probably misleading. I found this: HOMONORMATIVITY - ‘A politics that does not contest dominant heteronormative assumptions and institutions, but upholds and sustains them, while promising the possibility of a demobilized gay constituency and a privatized, depoliticized gay culture anchored in domesticity and consumption’ ( L. Duggan 2003 ). So I think what it's saying is that in gay culture homonormativity is the internalization by the gay community of values and stereotypes of what it means to be gay which belong to/have been created by the straight community.
Ug, I have run out of time and have to get ready for work, but thanks for the post, I have been out of the academic loop and haven't heard this term "homonormativity" yet. Interesting concept.
YesThatCasey - 01/13/12 01:31
Bah, this is clearly not coming across as I intended. Unfortunately, I don't know how to clear it up because I don't know what people are thinking when they are reading it.
Maybe the part where I'm expressing my frustration is being viewed as an attack or something, but that's not the case. It was more to convey how these attitudes can make me feel when I or people I know are targeted by them.
The intention of my OP was to point out is that there are cultural tendencies to identify attitudes as belonging to particular groups, but that these tendencies are misplaced, unhelpful, and anti-progressive. The growing acceptance of homosexuality has been accompanied by the notion that these somewhat distinct groups have distinct characteristics. Instead, both sides need to remember that this is about allowing people to be whatever it is they want to be. Not just sexually, but in any form of expression.
I suppose this all started after a discussion at game night. My sexuality came up, and TK took the common position that I was gay, something he adamantly believes. Others had more interesting positions, with the Kinsey scale coming up for example. I found it humorous for the most part, but the underlying frustration as I later thought through it led me to start researching these lines of thought. I came across the aforementioned concepts for the first time, and thought they were good starting point for a discussion.
This isn't a matter of drama. I'm just sharing my thoughts without editing them since I feel e-strip is a more intimate grounds for discussion. There aren't any reasons to delete responses. I was just interested on peoples thoughts on this matter. I guess now I'm also interested in what made my post come across so differently, heh.
Bah, this is clearly not coming across as I intended. Unfortunately, I don't know how to clear it up because I don't know what people are thinking when they are reading it.
Maybe the part where I'm expressing my frustration is being viewed as an attack or something, but that's not the case. It was more to convey how these attitudes can make me feel when I or people I know are targeted by them.
The intention of my OP was to point out is that there are cultural tendencies to identify attitudes as belonging to particular groups, but that these tendencies are misplaced, unhelpful, and anti-progressive. The growing acceptance of homosexuality has been accompanied by the notion that these somewhat distinct groups have distinct characteristics. Instead, both sides need to remember that this is about allowing people to be whatever it is they want to be. Not just sexually, but in any form of expression.
I suppose this all started after a discussion at game night. My sexuality came up, and TK took the common position that I was gay, something he adamantly believes. Others had more interesting positions, with the Kinsey scale coming up for example. I found it humorous for the most part, but the underlying frustration as I later thought through it led me to start researching these lines of thought. I came across the aforementioned concepts for the first time, and thought they were good starting point for a discussion.
This isn't a matter of drama. I'm just sharing my thoughts without editing them since I feel e-strip is a more intimate grounds for discussion. There aren't any reasons to delete responses. I was just interested on peoples thoughts on this matter. I guess now I'm also interested in what made my post come across so differently, heh.
paul - 01/13/12 00:57
Wow I must gave really fallen off the gossip wagon to have missed whatever started this.
I can't even count the number of responses I wrote to this and deleted.
Wow I must gave really fallen off the gossip wagon to have missed whatever started this.
I can't even count the number of responses I wrote to this and deleted.
YesThatCasey - 01/12/12 19:54
My point is clearly being missed. This has nothing to do with people hitting on me. That doesn't bother me. I'd suggest reading the links. This has to do with forcing people into particular roles.
My point is clearly being missed. This has nothing to do with people hitting on me. That doesn't bother me. I'd suggest reading the links. This has to do with forcing people into particular roles.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:53
With more time I do want to read up on them.... I do agree that they both are negative.... With any new terms or information one or at least I have to think a bit.....
With more time I do want to read up on them.... I do agree that they both are negative.... With any new terms or information one or at least I have to think a bit.....
YesThatCasey - 01/12/12 19:50
Peter, the terms are negative. They are unreasonable constraints that people place on others or themselves.
Peter, the terms are negative. They are unreasonable constraints that people place on others or themselves.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:50
Now in terms of being Bothered in bars Not sure what to tell yeah.... Make you gay friends to Straight bars and make them wait an hour to get then when they do get in listen to the same music and dance? HA....
I think the real issue or one of them might be the deception... Not that you do it on purpose... But the thinking aka Assuming everyone there is gay... Kinda like if some one gay was at a bar drinking and talking about the game and this and that and then came onto them... It isn't this is gross (Yes that could be a part of it) but it is that you think this person is one thing and they are another.... But again just a guess... Kinda Like when you go some place to eat think it is cool think it is your place list them as the best everything in art voice and then 2 months later the chef you talked to and thought was the owner isn't cause the place is a national chain ?
Hoping I'm not the only one to chime in.... Hey on the brightside? be glad you are being hit on? The one time I went out I wasn't even noticed in either type of bar so......
Now in terms of being Bothered in bars Not sure what to tell yeah.... Make you gay friends to Straight bars and make them wait an hour to get then when they do get in listen to the same music and dance? HA....
I think the real issue or one of them might be the deception... Not that you do it on purpose... But the thinking aka Assuming everyone there is gay... Kinda like if some one gay was at a bar drinking and talking about the game and this and that and then came onto them... It isn't this is gross (Yes that could be a part of it) but it is that you think this person is one thing and they are another.... But again just a guess... Kinda Like when you go some place to eat think it is cool think it is your place list them as the best everything in art voice and then 2 months later the chef you talked to and thought was the owner isn't cause the place is a national chain ?
Hoping I'm not the only one to chime in.... Hey on the brightside? be glad you are being hit on? The one time I went out I wasn't even noticed in either type of bar so......
YesThatCasey - 01/12/12 19:48
What's confusing Tiny?
What's confusing Tiny?
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:44
I won't lie I didn't follow the links of the terms and maybe I should but I'm bit confused on what they mean..... But I don't agree with the first term at all... Now that I think about it the second term I don't agree with either....
Of course I can't prove this but I think that there are men and women who might par take it say couples sex... They date and act what ever Straight is but the sex would be gay... So that kinda bashes Term #1.... Maybe this only is aimed at men but how does a bi girl and a straight act differently? Now where this term might get some credence is if one argues that there isn't really and such thing as a man who is Bi they are really gay but just don't really know it and that Denial is so strong they can't over come it....
Now if you believe term #2... That means that if you don't follow Gender Roles you are gay? Not buying that either... So you have no Job and so you watch the kids and the wife makes the money... Then you are gay? Or if you prefer
Soccer in this country.... I don't buy it......
I won't lie I didn't follow the links of the terms and maybe I should but I'm bit confused on what they mean..... But I don't agree with the first term at all... Now that I think about it the second term I don't agree with either....
Of course I can't prove this but I think that there are men and women who might par take it say couples sex... They date and act what ever Straight is but the sex would be gay... So that kinda bashes Term #1.... Maybe this only is aimed at men but how does a bi girl and a straight act differently? Now where this term might get some credence is if one argues that there isn't really and such thing as a man who is Bi they are really gay but just don't really know it and that Denial is so strong they can't over come it....
Now if you believe term #2... That means that if you don't follow Gender Roles you are gay? Not buying that either... So you have no Job and so you watch the kids and the wife makes the money... Then you are gay? Or if you prefer
Soccer in this country.... I don't buy it......
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:34
eh? very confusing post.
eh? very confusing post.
01/10/2012 16:37 #55883
Georgia's Anti-obesity CampaignAn NPR article circulating Facebook has been accompanied by some interesting comments.
YouTube collection of the videos uploaded by the campaign:
I do find myself concerned about how this could negatively affect an obese child's self-perception. I also worry about the potential of increased bullying.
That said, I know that these children will face serious health issues. I know there is a lack of honest dialogue with the parents, and between the parents and their children, regarding the obesity that each child is facing. I know that there is a complacency surrounding this matter that is curtailing the potential for corrective actions. I know that, having conditioned their body to live this way, and not knowing any other way of life, it will be increasingly difficult to correct this problem as they enter adulthood, and by the time they reach that point there will be some damage that cannot be undone.
Since the campaign seems to have been successful in bringing the conversation out into the open, I find myself supporting the campaign. I certainly would not have followed the same approach were I leading the campaign. I would have portrayed the children as empowered, challenging their parents notions about what is good for them, rallying against fast/unhealthy foods, and demanding better school lunches. But, with how many children are facing this matter, I find myself reluctant to shun an effort that I believe will have a net-positive result.
The organizers have said that this is the first of a 3-part campaign. Further spots will be more positive, with a focus on the actions necessary to combat the issue. It will be interesting to see what they cover. I hope that they are effective, and less controversial, as I believe this is a PSA we need in all states, not just Georgia.
YouTube collection of the videos uploaded by the campaign:
I do find myself concerned about how this could negatively affect an obese child's self-perception. I also worry about the potential of increased bullying.
That said, I know that these children will face serious health issues. I know there is a lack of honest dialogue with the parents, and between the parents and their children, regarding the obesity that each child is facing. I know that there is a complacency surrounding this matter that is curtailing the potential for corrective actions. I know that, having conditioned their body to live this way, and not knowing any other way of life, it will be increasingly difficult to correct this problem as they enter adulthood, and by the time they reach that point there will be some damage that cannot be undone.
Since the campaign seems to have been successful in bringing the conversation out into the open, I find myself supporting the campaign. I certainly would not have followed the same approach were I leading the campaign. I would have portrayed the children as empowered, challenging their parents notions about what is good for them, rallying against fast/unhealthy foods, and demanding better school lunches. But, with how many children are facing this matter, I find myself reluctant to shun an effort that I believe will have a net-positive result.
The organizers have said that this is the first of a 3-part campaign. Further spots will be more positive, with a focus on the actions necessary to combat the issue. It will be interesting to see what they cover. I hope that they are effective, and less controversial, as I believe this is a PSA we need in all states, not just Georgia.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:59
I should clean up what I mean about Genetics a bit more..... I'm not saying that everyone who is obese it is in there genes.... What I'm saying is you hear or see people who say no matter what they do they can't lose weight... Well then can but only to a certain point.... I think that everyone is set up to be sort of a certain size.... Height width and along the way that can change based on Diet and exercise or lack there of.... But some people are made wide and all ways will be..... I hope that the follow up to this is about health... Cause I can tell you that I eat a lot of crap and if I didn't have the high Metabolism at some point I would have been the fat kid.....
I should clean up what I mean about Genetics a bit more..... I'm not saying that everyone who is obese it is in there genes.... What I'm saying is you hear or see people who say no matter what they do they can't lose weight... Well then can but only to a certain point.... I think that everyone is set up to be sort of a certain size.... Height width and along the way that can change based on Diet and exercise or lack there of.... But some people are made wide and all ways will be..... I hope that the follow up to this is about health... Cause I can tell you that I eat a lot of crap and if I didn't have the high Metabolism at some point I would have been the fat kid.....
YesThatCasey - 01/12/12 19:44
On the note about anti-smoking campaigns increasing smokers, the data does not support this claim. They appear to be less effective than what we expect them to be but, generally, they reduce smoking.
Genetics: there is no genetic change that would account for the dramatic increase we have seen in a single generation. Yes, there are situations where someone will be overweight, perhaps even obese, while being healthy (or as healthy as they can within their body). But, these are a very small portion of the current overweight population. Far too often, overweight individuals are self-diagnosing themselves this way as an excuse for their condition. We do need to be careful about stigmatizing the image, but we also need to address the problem.
Tiny, I agree with you that the ads are not as negative as people are making them out to be. Much of this sentiment seems to be reactionary, assumed, and viral. I love the hypothetical scenario you are presenting about a non-obese child viewing the commercial. People are focusing on the bully who is going to use it as ammunition (as if they need any?). But, many other children may see them, and realize that they can be supportive.
On the note about anti-smoking campaigns increasing smokers, the data does not support this claim. They appear to be less effective than what we expect them to be but, generally, they reduce smoking.
Genetics: there is no genetic change that would account for the dramatic increase we have seen in a single generation. Yes, there are situations where someone will be overweight, perhaps even obese, while being healthy (or as healthy as they can within their body). But, these are a very small portion of the current overweight population. Far too often, overweight individuals are self-diagnosing themselves this way as an excuse for their condition. We do need to be careful about stigmatizing the image, but we also need to address the problem.
Tiny, I agree with you that the ads are not as negative as people are making them out to be. Much of this sentiment seems to be reactionary, assumed, and viral. I love the hypothetical scenario you are presenting about a non-obese child viewing the commercial. People are focusing on the bully who is going to use it as ammunition (as if they need any?). But, many other children may see them, and realize that they can be supportive.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:15
Rice is such a base from what I remember in Indian food but I think that is not as hard to give up as chips.... Reason being is that salt and things that are sweet this is very true together have and addicting quality .... I know they have done some type of research on it and brain Chemistry.....
I agree on the Parenting thing...
Rice is such a base from what I remember in Indian food but I think that is not as hard to give up as chips.... Reason being is that salt and things that are sweet this is very true together have and addicting quality .... I know they have done some type of research on it and brain Chemistry.....
I agree on the Parenting thing...
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:09
Somewhat related (and somewhat not) but I grew up eating 80% rice and potatoes all the time. I had no choice. Seriously. It made me sleepy all the time. When I finally realized this core issue, I completely gave up both these foods. I can definitely say that I am far happier now than when I was on those foods.
Somewhat related (and somewhat not) but I grew up eating 80% rice and potatoes all the time. I had no choice. Seriously. It made me sleepy all the time. When I finally realized this core issue, I completely gave up both these foods. I can definitely say that I am far happier now than when I was on those foods.
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:06
Okay, so I have to point out here that the role of a parent is extremely complicated. Not only do they have to set an example and eat right themselves, they also have to encourage kids to follow their example, provide the necessary framework to ensure that kids learn what is healthful and what isn't, encourage healthful eating as well as habits that increase physical activity all at the same time.
I always doubt if I will ever be a good parent. Its a super tough job as it is.
Okay, so I have to point out here that the role of a parent is extremely complicated. Not only do they have to set an example and eat right themselves, they also have to encourage kids to follow their example, provide the necessary framework to ensure that kids learn what is healthful and what isn't, encourage healthful eating as well as habits that increase physical activity all at the same time.
I always doubt if I will ever be a good parent. Its a super tough job as it is.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 19:02
Well most of it is the parents ..... But it isn't only them... Kids are in places where they can choose what to eat.... But most kids will pick what is tasty to them.... Now if they grow up on Healthy stuff that is what they will choose to eat.. Think say private school or Friends house where there are different options
Well most of it is the parents ..... But it isn't only them... Kids are in places where they can choose what to eat.... But most kids will pick what is tasty to them.... Now if they grow up on Healthy stuff that is what they will choose to eat.. Think say private school or Friends house where there are different options
tinypliny - 01/12/12 19:01
If a non obese kid sees the ads, and if they have had proper parenting, then is it not possible that they ask this question as well. Yes, why are they fat? What is diabetes? What is wrong with the system? Assuming that non-obese kids and parents must know about how not to get fat is an equally dangerous thing for the future.
If a non obese kid sees the ads, and if they have had proper parenting, then is it not possible that they ask this question as well. Yes, why are they fat? What is diabetes? What is wrong with the system? Assuming that non-obese kids and parents must know about how not to get fat is an equally dangerous thing for the future.
tinypliny - 01/12/12 18:56
I don't think kids get much of a choice in what they eat, (e:metalpeter). I blame childhood obesity completely and squarely on poor parenting and lack of awareness of the consequences of obesity in the parents themselves.
Environments in which kids grow up obese are waaaaay different than environments in which they don't become obese. This not only includes food choices but also activity choices, transportation choices and commute choices.
Many of these decisions lie in the hands of parents. In addition, parents are themselves sometimes bound to bad decisions if these decisions are dictated by their financial situation.
I agree that the ads are somewhat brief but as (e:YesThatCasey) says, they are part of a sequence of ads. The complete campaign perhaps will be revealed as we go forwards. The current brief ads can be likened to "Statement of the problem" or just what is wrong in the picture.
I don't think kids get much of a choice in what they eat, (e:metalpeter). I blame childhood obesity completely and squarely on poor parenting and lack of awareness of the consequences of obesity in the parents themselves.
Environments in which kids grow up obese are waaaaay different than environments in which they don't become obese. This not only includes food choices but also activity choices, transportation choices and commute choices.
Many of these decisions lie in the hands of parents. In addition, parents are themselves sometimes bound to bad decisions if these decisions are dictated by their financial situation.
I agree that the ads are somewhat brief but as (e:YesThatCasey) says, they are part of a sequence of ads. The complete campaign perhaps will be revealed as we go forwards. The current brief ads can be likened to "Statement of the problem" or just what is wrong in the picture.
metalpeter - 01/12/12 18:21
Here is my Issue with the ads and this is just me.... If they where I'm Obese and that means I'm unhealthy I wouldn't have a problem... But it is more like Why am I fat... It is like a girl saying why Do I have small Boobs ? Well you are thin and never eat and have no fat what do you expect.... Or a girl Going why are My boobs Bigger then some kids heads... Well look at how the rest of you is built you just got them before everyone else... Why am I black ..... Well your parents have money so you live in the Burbs.... The Point is these ads are about kids not fitting in... Now again this is Just a first step... But I think if normal sized (what ever that is) kids see them they could think Fat People are different... The ugly truth that many people who are fat are lazy and eat way more then they should....They Choose to do this! But that isn't the case with everyone.... I do think the ads are a good idea....
Here is my Issue with the ads and this is just me.... If they where I'm Obese and that means I'm unhealthy I wouldn't have a problem... But it is more like Why am I fat... It is like a girl saying why Do I have small Boobs ? Well you are thin and never eat and have no fat what do you expect.... Or a girl Going why are My boobs Bigger then some kids heads... Well look at how the rest of you is built you just got them before everyone else... Why am I black ..... Well your parents have money so you live in the Burbs.... The Point is these ads are about kids not fitting in... Now again this is Just a first step... But I think if normal sized (what ever that is) kids see them they could think Fat People are different... The ugly truth that many people who are fat are lazy and eat way more then they should....They Choose to do this! But that isn't the case with everyone.... I do think the ads are a good idea....
tinypliny - 01/12/12 15:57
I am not sure that the ads are negative at all. They are simple and convey one single point. Awareness. That is the first entry point to prevention of any disease, not just obesity and related issues. I don't see how these ads will lead to low self-esteem. If they are obese, the kids are probably already having a tough childhood. These ads are targeted at parents to wake up to this fact and be aware that being fat may not necessarily be an unapproachable and irremediable condition.
I am not sure that the ads are negative at all. They are simple and convey one single point. Awareness. That is the first entry point to prevention of any disease, not just obesity and related issues. I don't see how these ads will lead to low self-esteem. If they are obese, the kids are probably already having a tough childhood. These ads are targeted at parents to wake up to this fact and be aware that being fat may not necessarily be an unapproachable and irremediable condition.
flacidness - 01/12/12 15:26
Cool it's about time. Georgia made sagging pants illegal recently too
Cool it's about time. Georgia made sagging pants illegal recently too
metalpeter - 01/10/12 18:36
So I have to admit that there is a part of me that is waiting and hoping to Hear or would that be (e:tinypliny)'s side to this....
Now I did the two comments for a reason in that I thought it would be good to do each part on its own and now have the other stuff effect it that much........
I would have to agree that even those these ads could do some damage the over all effect should be good in that it gets the issue into the light for people who have all Ways just eaten that way....
That being said there are a few things that must be addressed
1. Genetics are a factor and just cause you are big doesn't mean you aren't healthy just like being skinny doesn't mean you don't eat fried food every other day........
2. That is one factor in why heavy parents have heavy kids and heavy Pets , now the pets are because of how much food they eat or often times they get table food.... Now see if kids won't eat healthy if the adults don't and they are the ones who control the food...
2a. So not only do you have to reach the parents on the health issue but you also have to teach them how to deal with and break kids into healthy or at least less bad food... A kid who all ways gets a Big Mac or Triple Stacker and Large shack after every Baseball game isn't going to want to give that up...
3. Teach about real reading labels and what all that means... Lets face it sometimes what looks Healthy Has more fat and Salt then what looks bad... Some Packaging is made to make you think it is better off for you then it really is....
So I have to admit that there is a part of me that is waiting and hoping to Hear or would that be (e:tinypliny)'s side to this....
Now I did the two comments for a reason in that I thought it would be good to do each part on its own and now have the other stuff effect it that much........
I would have to agree that even those these ads could do some damage the over all effect should be good in that it gets the issue into the light for people who have all Ways just eaten that way....
That being said there are a few things that must be addressed
1. Genetics are a factor and just cause you are big doesn't mean you aren't healthy just like being skinny doesn't mean you don't eat fried food every other day........
2. That is one factor in why heavy parents have heavy kids and heavy Pets , now the pets are because of how much food they eat or often times they get table food.... Now see if kids won't eat healthy if the adults don't and they are the ones who control the food...
2a. So not only do you have to reach the parents on the health issue but you also have to teach them how to deal with and break kids into healthy or at least less bad food... A kid who all ways gets a Big Mac or Triple Stacker and Large shack after every Baseball game isn't going to want to give that up...
3. Teach about real reading labels and what all that means... Lets face it sometimes what looks Healthy Has more fat and Salt then what looks bad... Some Packaging is made to make you think it is better off for you then it really is....
metalpeter - 01/10/12 18:08
2. In terms of Obesity I think these ads could make things worse.... Yes there are people who don't know it is a problem and in the one story Portion Control is a good way of doing it.... As an example when you have a plate just fill most of the center you don't need the entire plate.... The reason I say worse is I think shocking people can have the other effect... All that gross smoking stuff I think just scares people and don't know if it helps at all really...... See though this shouldn't be about being over weight it should be about eating healthy or at least eating less of the bad stuff.... Cause what if I go to a Buffet and Eat 2 bowls of Ice Cream, 3 Sodas, and a plate of fried Chicken, and 2 more plates of food Well I'm thin so it is ok but for that guy the size of a linemen it is wrong?
2. In terms of Obesity I think these ads could make things worse.... Yes there are people who don't know it is a problem and in the one story Portion Control is a good way of doing it.... As an example when you have a plate just fill most of the center you don't need the entire plate.... The reason I say worse is I think shocking people can have the other effect... All that gross smoking stuff I think just scares people and don't know if it helps at all really...... See though this shouldn't be about being over weight it should be about eating healthy or at least eating less of the bad stuff.... Cause what if I go to a Buffet and Eat 2 bowls of Ice Cream, 3 Sodas, and a plate of fried Chicken, and 2 more plates of food Well I'm thin so it is ok but for that guy the size of a linemen it is wrong?
metalpeter - 01/10/12 18:02
With out reading your entire post... Don't worry I will I went to see the story and it is interesting..... But see here is the thing one should never do anything based on being Bullied cause you don't fit into Society... What is next if you go to an art school pretending one loves giving head more then getting it .... How about if I went to school in Texas I'm so thin I would get mocked what am I supposed to do take pills to slow down my Metabolism? When I said Society what I really mean is that places "Social Norms"... If you need a TV example think of the Twilight Zone with the gorgeous blonde who thinks she is ugly cause everyone else is a pig......
With out reading your entire post... Don't worry I will I went to see the story and it is interesting..... But see here is the thing one should never do anything based on being Bullied cause you don't fit into Society... What is next if you go to an art school pretending one loves giving head more then getting it .... How about if I went to school in Texas I'm so thin I would get mocked what am I supposed to do take pills to slow down my Metabolism? When I said Society what I really mean is that places "Social Norms"... If you need a TV example think of the Twilight Zone with the gorgeous blonde who thinks she is ugly cause everyone else is a pig......
paul - 01/10/12 17:41
As for the fat kids, I am not sure how to feel about this because I can't imagine what it feels like to be a fat kid.
Yet it seems like a good idea because they will be teased for being fat regardless of the campaign and this might help some of them.
As for the fat kids, I am not sure how to feel about this because I can't imagine what it feels like to be a fat kid.
Yet it seems like a good idea because they will be teased for being fat regardless of the campaign and this might help some of them.
paul - 01/10/12 17:36
Without the link button you just paste the link and it turns into the ::link:: style link. If you want the link to be some other text, you use the link button or just type in the linking code.
With the button, first type what you want as a link e.g. "click here for google" Then select that text, hit the link button and type in the link to the website. It will put the right code in for you.
Alternatively, you can just type the code in. If you hover over the link button it shows you an example of how it should look.
Without the link button you just paste the link and it turns into the ::link:: style link. If you want the link to be some other text, you use the link button or just type in the linking code.
With the button, first type what you want as a link e.g. "click here for google" Then select that text, hit the link button and type in the link to the website. It will put the right code in for you.
Alternatively, you can just type the code in. If you hover over the link button it shows you an example of how it should look.
YesThatCasey - 01/10/12 16:41
Ok, they appear if I don't use the link button.
Ok, they appear if I don't use the link button.
YesThatCasey - 01/10/12 16:40
Links aren't appearing for some reason. Here they are:
:::link:::
:::link:::
Links aren't appearing for some reason. Here they are:
:::link:::
:::link:::
Well that will never happen.