tinypliny - 09/10/11 17:54
I shudder at the thought of people using ringworms for crohns alternative treatment. Somehow the thought of something alive literally sucking my blood out and suppressing my local immune system seems really scary to me. I realize it seems like a good idea to quell the local hyperactive inflammatory state in autoimmune intestinal disease but I question if anyone has looked at the tradeoff of having an active parasitic infestation on the general health of these "ringworm recipients".

tinypliny - 09/10/11 18:18
Trusting the bell curve once more, Mr Visco? tut tut.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 17:55
There is nothing wrong with you except perhaps long intervals of not eating and then having a really big meal. And of course all those allergies...

metalpeter - 09/09/11 17:05
For fun you should try this same test after a night of drinking and when the Pissing starts and see how things turn out.... Maybe even after certain foods from ethnic places? just to see how certain things effect it.....

leetee - 09/09/11 11:09
i would be so scared to have home testing stuff around.... i would become a hypochondriac

metalpeter - 09/19/11 18:23
Been away for a few days WWE and MIA and wow there was a lot of stuff after my last comment so wow few things that In all fairness I need to ad... If I was pro and didn't say these things I would get kicked off of CNN or brought up on charges....

1. Many moons ago I did work for Wilson Farms whom at the time was owned by tops and at the time they where one of many super markets Owned by think they where called Ahold at the time...

2. The place I currently work (not food) sends products to many stores (Wal-Mart, Target, being the biggest two but I know someone of our stuff goes to Wegmen's and tops also (not sure how it gets to tops tough)

Now the 3rd thing I should ad has nothing to do with the top two... If you read or believe any religious text many of them think we are in the end times... Now Not that I do... But it makes me think that maybe Urban Farming (yes that sounds so dumb farming in the city then it isn't the city) is a great idea.. Granted you can't grow everything you need in your back yard.. Plus you have to have one... Also what about growing (not just all kinds of flavored pot) stuff hydroponiclly in ones house... Again you have to have the space.....

@(e:YesThatCasey) that does make me wonder in Buffalo there are a lot of empty lots not only in the ghetto where getting people to come in might be tough... But maybe Turn those empty lots (ok sometime 3 foot tall grass) into growing areas... Of course to get it to really work you might need some federal program. But why not hire x number of people per state to go around and do that..... That would help the poor! and not only the poor any place where people leave homes empty for years and then they go by by....

YesThatCasey - 09/18/11 20:05
Poor is a reality, and with it comes necessary decisions that focus on the immediate. As such, it becomes a luxury to make socially conscious decisions, a system quite intentionally designed to neuter the power that the meek possess due to their numbers. Guilty is the wrong word; I would say anger is the appropriate response.

However, this discussion, at least the points I have been focusing on, explores the appropriate action when a choice is economically feasible. This allows us to focus on what is right in the big picture, not what is practical in the immediate.

Looking forward to the return. Fun times.

tinypliny - 09/18/11 18:14
For future reference, so I can pick up my own threads, this discussion in my head was all about
a) why prices are so high for organic produce? (at the coop or wherever) {conventional produce is organic produce back home and its cheaper, seems completely opposite here}
b) should I be concerned about it because I don't currently buy organic or have the means to reach that level of expense.
{part of the chemicals in my life project. Should I be scared or not? is there evidence to be scared? do I believe this evidence}
c) am I supporting the "wrong" cause by shopping at pricerite? (no one wants to think they are doing evil unconsciously, neither do I). What is wrong about this cause? Can I defend my sources? How effective will I be in this defense? And do I have a proper understanding of the politics and economics behind this defense?
{this has taken up most of the argument space}
d) If one is poor, are they doomed to either sources that make them feel guilty? Is there an alternative?
{(e:metalpeter)'s points strike these chords. To an extent, it *seems* we share similar situations and circumstances, but I am not sure.}

tinypliny - 09/18/11 17:53
On the surface it seems to me now that I am supporting the viewpoints I am in this thread because I have little choice in my food sources, given my income. I guess I am looking at myself and asking, is it possible, even with my limited income to a) change my food sources, b) make a positive impact on many spheres, c) not encourage exploitation and yet, and most importantly d) eat according to what my own field of research tells me to.

tinypliny - 09/18/11 17:47
% The article you posted is in a language in which I am not even at an elementary fluency, but I appreciate it. I was hoping you'd check out the articles referenced in worldwatch summary; I know they're directly contradictory to your background knowledge

Exactly why I am taking a break. I want to read all those articles and sort out why Norman Borlaugh seems to be wrong. He is universally accepted as an infallible Einstein of the green revolution back home. I don't know what sort of an influence he had here, but his ideas were single-handedly responsible for bringing India to food sufficiency after independence. Through my high school and college years, it was impossible not to revere him above and beyond any other social scientist. So yes, re-evaluation and research is in order. I want to step back and dissect my own ideas to see if they are even modern in this particular issue? Who knows, I am continuing with medieval views without questioning them just because the field is not one I am connected with or even think about in any great detail...

Will be back to share what I learn!

heidi - 09/18/11 17:38
Yeah, I wanna point out that none of us made health claims re: organic foods, that was a point you brought up in comment 64930. Maybe that came from an off-line convo with (e:Paul)? The article you posted is in a language in which I am not even at an elementary fluency, but I appreciate it. I was hoping you'd check out the articles referenced in worldwatch summary; I know they're directly contradictory to your background knowledge.

re: #4 - Extremely complicated political economic issue... a. The red state ideology is a mash up of religious right and corporatist interests. b. People often don't vote their economic interest. c. Manufacturing Consent :::link::: - our corporate-controlled media would never allow such heresy. Overall, your comments suggest that you believe in the agency of the individual to make choices and changes. I believe that our individual choices are constrained by the institutions in which we live and with which we interact. Most people do not see alternatives to the mainstream media models because even if the MSM includes other perspectives at all, it paints those alternatives as not socially acceptable (ie. we're all tree-hugging commie pinko homos to even be having this discussion).

A very tiny example of how our institutions structure our choices is my post on bike racks. Biking as transportation is cheap, eco-friendly, and health-friendly, so you'd think that it should be an easy choice, however, our institutions don't support it: the city government chooses not to install bike lanes; the stores choose not to install adequate bike racks. These aren't decisions I can overcome as an individual. When we use this frame in our discussions, a whole lot of grey shows up.

tinypliny - 09/18/11 17:38
{oh and also, its an extension of my ever-continuing dialogue with (e:Paul) about why we have the food preferences we have, can we change? should we change? what are the benefits of changing? Are these benefits worth it? is the orange tongue connected with any of the above decisions? is being poor connected with any of the above decisions?}

tinypliny - 09/18/11 17:35
I am going to return to this thread in around a month or so if that's okay. :)

{yes, many of my positions support your statements. this thread has become more about analyzing what I understand about where and how my food is coming from rather than why prices are so high at the coop. But its taking up an inordinate amount of mindspace for me, so I am taking a break. Extremely thankful to you, (e:heidi), (e:metalpeter) and (e:uncut) for really making me think about what my perspectives are. They are still evolving as I sort through this thread.}

YesThatCasey - 09/18/11 17:07
I'm going to reply to some other things you said, but I don't want that to distract from my previous points which you have not addressed yet. I simply find that some of your statements seem to inadvertantly provide support for the positions I am presenting.


"Do you more more about this negotiation process? Why do their suppliers negotiate with them? If as Casey said, its a loss to farmers, why negotiate at all? Why not just bypass this negotiation with Pricerite and sell to Weggers or Tops?"

Because not enough people support these practices that you are arguing against right now! It's not a loss if there isn't a better option available, which there isn't without the appropriate amount of demand.

"Also, what about FDA regulation and inspection for produce safety? Organic farmers never go out of their way to make inspections easy for the FDA. This is why the e.coli disaster happened in the first place."

Seriously? How does the fact that the FDA is well-known to be heavily influenced by agriculture conglomnerates affect the weight of your point? Or what about the fact that the outbreak examples you are using occur far more frequently within corporate farms? I know you're arguing against organic farming here, a position I never argued for; but, humorously enough, while not addressing my position, you are definitely supporting it.

Also, while I'm not arguing for or against organic farming, I don't think it's a fad. Consdering all of the research you are linking to says that the jury is out, you seem to be taking too strong a position on your end. What I am for, though, is sustainable practices. The very link you provided to me earlier touched on the benefit of sustainability thanks to the practices of local farmers, which cannot be said for food industry conglomerates that are driven on short-term profits and are the very reason we need the EPA to begin with!

The closest thing that I said that could have been took as an argument for organic farming is when I complimented Heidi's response to you. But, organic was a small portion of that post, and she was pointing to environmental and sustainable benefits of the practice, which I beleieve are well documented, whereas you are focusing solely on health. I'm willing to take into account other information, but we both need to do that for our discussion to achieve progress.

"I started writing a mini paper on why I don't think the coop will get inexpensive anytime or even support WNY's economy in the near future. The basic reason is laid out in your comment. Mass production is never going be a reality for the coop farmers who are into organic farming practices."

Considering I was never taking the stance of 'mass organic production", I hope you will not be misquoting me. The mass production I was referring to was dealing with the busines and purchasing models. Due to the size of our population, I agree that absolute organic farming is almost certainly impossible without drastic changes. However, the fact that we have adapted our farms to support a large number of people doesn't wipe away the costs of doing so. There are real problems with the models you are defending, but you don't seem to acknowledge them.

I should also point out, however, that "mass" does not equal "absolute". You can increase one type of production, while having other manners of production as well. I am talking about a scale, whereas you are talking about a coin.

Lastly...

"It sounds very noble and right to be among the elite..."

Can we stop painting this as some sort of crusade or emotional attachment? Almost everything here has been fact or research based. We simply are pooling all of our information together to try and achieve consensus based on what is available to us. Devaluing the position with this technique is really not a helpful practice.

YesThatCasey - 09/18/11 16:11
Um, Tiny, I never argued for organic, so that long, well-written reply of yours really didn't touch on any of my points. :o(

tinypliny - 09/18/11 14:40
Re: #4: Something I was thinking about as I read your comment about the AEI being politically driven. A good number of red states are more agricultural than blue states. If farmers are being oppressed and tyrannized by corporations and their elected representatives to the government actually supports the tyrants, why aren't they switching sides? I guess it's not that simple, but it does make you think about why the red states are still red even with all the oppression.

tinypliny - 09/18/11 13:42
Morgan Stanley :::link:::

heidi - 09/18/11 13:39
Oh, Tops is privately held: :::link:::

heidi - 09/18/11 13:36
Tops headquarters is in Williamsville, altho I don't know its ownership.

I find Wegmans a source of terrible temptation. If I bought exactly what I buy at Tops, it might be cheaper, but I'm always buying other amazing things. :-p

paul - 09/17/11 22:08
And if someone hasn't already pointed out Wegmans is essentially a local business if you count rochacha as local.

uncutsaniflush - 09/17/11 20:25
@ (e:heidi) - in our household, we tend to shop at Wegmans because for the stuff we buy on a regular basis, Wegmans has consistently lower prices than Tops. But we also shop the sales and use coupons. Our goal is pay the least possible with one caveat - if the co-op has prices close to Wegmans or Tops on something we will choose to buy at the co-op even if it costs a bit more.

uncutsaniflush - 09/17/11 20:14
Good gracious me ms tiny socrates ain't got nothing on you. But what is "consistently near" expiration mean? Some products have a shorter shelf life than others.

In general terms, in a food market, if a product is consistently stocked but "consistently near" (whatever that means!!??) expiry, it is a product that sells but not in great quantities. I

I think that quality in produce is a lot like porn. No one can define it but everyone knows when they see it.

More seriously, in the U.S., the Department of Agriculture provides the produce industries with standards. See :::link::: for veggies and :::link::: for fruit. Both pages have links to the standards for specific fruits and veg.

On a more everyday level, check out :::link::: for advice on how to pick fruit and vegetables.

In our area, Wegmans is a very hard market to break into. It has long established relationships with growers such as the Eden Valley Growers Co-op. Wegmans is willing to pay more for quality and also has fussier produce buyers.

As to "negoiate", all that means is a store says we want to pay x per head of cauliflower, and the grower/wholesaler says ok or counteroffers x + 7 cents (for example).

My guess is that if growers could sell to Wegmans they would.

(e:leetee)'s dad was a produce manager in Canada. I bet he could answer some of your questions about quality.

Oh, yeah. One more thing. Some grocery store chains do not let the local store decide what product they carry. So corporate ships stuff and the local managers do the best they can.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 20:08
Re: #4: I am reading those critiques now. Glad you dug them up!

tinypliny - 09/17/11 18:32
Also, one related question is how does one assess the quality of produce? Who does this assessment? How are the prices for high quality vs low quality produce decided? Is quality based on age of the produce? Is it based on some other thing? I am most interested in these answers... if you know, please do post!

tinypliny - 09/17/11 18:29

• know more

tinypliny - 09/17/11 18:29
Do you more more about this negotiation process? Why do their suppliers negotiate with them? If as Casey said, its a loss to farmers, why negotiate at all? Why not just bypass this negotiation with Pricerite and sell to Weggers or Tops?

tinypliny - 09/17/11 18:27
I had that (mistaken perhaps, as you point out) impression because many products are consistently on their shelves but also consistently near the expiry dates.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 18:26
LOL: :::link::: I see. :)

tinypliny - 09/17/11 18:24
that is interesting (e:uncutsaniflush). What does low quality produce mean in that line of business?

uncutsaniflush - 09/17/11 17:49
@ (e:tinypliny) re: #8: Based upon my professional experience (I've run inventories at Price-Rite), I think you are wrong that "mainly buys produce and products that are not bought by the other chains and near the end of their shelf life."

Price-Rite is like Save-a-lot and Adli in that carries a limited selection of products. They tend to carry regional or lesser-known brands. And if they carry national brands usually the selection is limited. You may find Kraft dressing in ranch and Italian flavors but you will not find the full line of flavors.

If you see a product at Price-Rite near its exiry date, it means that the produce is not selling and hasn't been re-ordered. If it doesn't sell, they probably won't restock it as often if at all.

As to produce, I can understand why you might say that. My employer doesn't inventory the produce so I can't say for sure. But I think the problem is not so much that they buy produce that no one else wants but rather that they negotiate a lower price with their suppliers and in produce lower price often means lower quality. Additionally, Price-rite doesn't purge their produce blems as often as Tops which doesn't purge their blems as often as Wegmans.



Price-rite doesn't deal in job lots like Ollies and (less so these days) Big Lots. They have regular suppliers and try to have a consistent line of products on their shelves.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 16:26
TODO: #1,2,3,4 & #6.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 16:23
Re: #8 again: Agreed the coop has some interesting cosmetics. But they are expensive. I cannot afford to buy them regularly. I want to go even lower tech and make my own soaps in the future or use edible natural soaps (traditional shikakai, various flours and fenugreek seeds mixed with essential oils).

tinypliny - 09/17/11 16:20
Re #7: Is there somewhere I can read the rate of growth of organic farms around WNY as a direct result of supporting the coop, organic at wegmans and tops?

tinypliny - 09/17/11 16:18
Re: 8: In the first couple years I was here, grocery shopping was an unending nightmare for me. I really ate in the most crappy way possible. Weekends were spent dissecting fungus out of produce I had bought a fortnight back (because I could only go to Wegmans once every 2 weeks or even less). The nearest tops is more than a mile away and I am not confident of walking that neighbourhood alone after dark or even in the dusk. All my milk came from walgreens. I often wished they sold produce as well. I seriously considered getting a car at one point (despite my super-mediocre driving skills here). It was that bad and very depressing.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 16:12
Re: #5: Please see (e:tinypliny,55162) I have attached the PDF there. Ambiguity in human intervention studies adds doubt when we are weighing the worth of scientific evidence. The article is just explaining why there is skepticism and how we can possibly address it in the future.

Re: #8: I think the pricerite lack of flavor is because it is my impression that it mainly buys produce and products that are not bought by the other chains and near the end of their shelf life. I see it more as a sort of "food rescue". Can hardly expect rescued food to be as good as the ones plucked straight off the farm, sorted into best, medium and worst batches which are then sold for matching prices to highscale, midscale and lowscale chains.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 16:00
Nice. I am glad you used Notepad (I just gave up. ;-)) I am going to address that point by point and see where it takes me in the next few days, but thanks for taking the time to write that up, (e:heidi). I am learning a lot from this thread as it addresses some of my primary concerns about how my eating and consumption habits have changed since I came here.

heidi - 09/17/11 15:27
1. The spiked-online essay blythely ignores the fact that the world is no longer going to be able to produce easily accessed (ie cheaply produced) highly concentrated energy in the form of fossil fuels at their current levels. Although some countries are actively creating infrastructure to collect the diffuse energy of solar and wind, the United States has not. Agribusiness is heavily dependent upon fossil fuels for everything from fertilizer to tractor fuel to trucking products.

2. It also uses the "technology will save us!" trope. You derided the alleged benefits of a strong local economy as vaporware, I similarly consider calls to technology as the savior to be unrealistic. We cannot technology our way out of climate change, we need to stop emitting CO2 and methane so that Buffalo's lovely snowy weather doesn't turn into South Carolina's sticky sweltering weather. Chicago's city planners are already re-treeing with southern species. We also cannot technology our way out of the other environmental consequences of factory farming, which include the non-local degradation of the Chesapeake Bay from non-point-source nitrogen runoff of large scale farming in central PA. We can't escape the consequences of decreasing production of fossil fuels on industrial farming. I am particularly frustrated by the author's dismissal about concerns over fresh water. Desalinzation is also heavily reliant on intensive energy inputs. Protecting fresh water is critical for maintenance of the current population load.

"But, all of technological optimism can be summed up in one desire: The desire not to have to change any of our current behaviors. And, yet it is our behavior that most of all needs changing." :::link::: Folks in the same poor places that are lacking food are also being hit with the most severe consequences of climate change.

((e:Terry), I found a couple articles talking about the climate change/global warming naming issue and forgot to grab the links. The scientific literature uses them to denote specific things but the political-media rhetoric seems to fall along the lines you were describing.)

3. There is no "proof" in social science, or in these more fuzzy areas of the intersection of complex systems like the environment, the economy and farming activity. It's all about correlation and teasing out potential factors. I'm very interested in the correlation between increased use of chemicals in farming and the increase in cancer rates, and yes, I'm willing to let you have some of my adipose tissue for research. I have plenty. (Cancer researchers should be partnering with plastic surgeons doing liposuction?)

4. The American Enterprise Institute (a right-wing political think tank) essay by the farmer ignores the exploitive relationship between the agribiz giants and the family farmers, the terrible distortions of the government subsidies for corn or soy but not broccoli (referencing every conversation we've had about high fructose corn syrup and/or obesity), and also has the technology optimist perspective. I think the movie _Fresh_ ... or maybe _Food, Inc._ ... is where I learned about how the agribiz companies dictate everything to the local farmer that they've contracted with and there's essentially no way out of the system once you're in it. I also recommend this critque of the article :::link::: or this one :::link::: Ultimately, our current system is producing *plenty* of food to feed everyone, however, our political-econonmic system has the option but not the will to actually get the food to those people. Food prices have increased dramatically in the past year. Why? Speculation, not scarcity. :::link:::

5. I can't read the sciencedirect article but these sentences in the abstract seem kinda important, "Animal studies carried out so far have demonstrated positive effects of an organic diet on weight, growth, fertility indices and immune system. Recent human epidemiological studies associated consumption of organic foods with lower risks of allergies, whereas findings of human intervention studies were still ambiguous."

6. This article directly addresses the claims that organic food production could not possibly feed all the people in the world, and that the non-use of herbicides would result in the potato famine: :::link:::

7. New York is in the top 10 of organic farming states in the country. It's a major economic driver in central NY; I'm less sure of WNY. Supporting the coop and shopping organic at Tops & Wegmans helps close the loop.

8. To tie this back into the Lexington Coop vs. PriceRite discussion... I shop at pricerite because it's cheap and my cash flow varies dramatically, but I'm often disappointed in the flavor of the produce. Tops is really my preferred balance of cost, flavor, variety and organic but it's not quite as conveniently located. I shop at the coop because I support its mission and because it has yummy, flavorful food without chemicals, and body products that I'm not allergic to. See (e:tinypliny,55085) for equivalent concern about this. I acknowledge my privileged status that I can often afford the luxury of the coop. I want to expand the amount of coop-ness in this world because I think that's the direction in which our collective future needs to head to mitigate the coming economic and environmental collapses (using "collapses: in the way Jared Diamond or John Michael Greer do). In Casey's oddly violent metaphor, supporting the coop is a pistol when we need rockets of systemic change.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 15:21
Convinced that eating local is the way to go? Take the "local movement" with some clustered grains of salt. :::link:::

tinypliny - 09/17/11 12:48
I want to emphasize that my lack of confidence in the benefits of organic farming and the promotion of organic farming comes from a lack of scientific evidence. Some limitations to research in this area are outlined in this well-written article: :::link:::

Influencing my scepticism against going 100% local is this essay: :::link:::

Another interesting essay I read defines the "Crunchy cons" :::link::: When I say that I want to go towards a CSA in the future, I guess I want to be a form of Crunchy Con.

Fun stuff to add to this discussion and perspective building.

tinypliny - 09/17/11 12:27
(e:YesThatCasey), you mentioned how mass production in the kind of farms that the Coop encourages will one day make things better and might even decrease poverty. The hope for this day keeps you going in your support for the coop's high prices.

The fact is organic farming practices can never really hit mass production without the aid of fertilizers and pesticides. It is well known that the natural nitrogen resources of the soil on this planet can scarcely support the food needs of a maximum of 4 billion. We are nearly 7 billion now. That was the basic tenet on which Borlaugh's green revolution was based. We would be in serious trouble as a planet if we all encouraged only organic farming.

Argue as you might, long term sustainability of organic farming is a fad. There will come a time when the organic farms will need chemical renewal of the nitrogen stores. In fact, I think you will find that some organic farmers have already hit this point with their farms and soils and are probably seriously considering chemical supplementation. Since people who support the organic movement are so against transgenic crops as well, disease resistant breeds will not be grown in these organic farms. This would mean disease susceptible breeds grown in nitrogen poor soils = a recipe for poor yields, more losses and higher prices.

It sounds very noble and right to be among the elite who support organic farms. But that choice is only for the few who actually believe that organic farming and organic produce is anyway better for them and the economy. There is insubstantial scientific evidence for any and all of these facts:
a) Organic produce is more nutritious
b) organic produces is safer
c) organic farms will attain mass production to feed this planet and one day decrease poverty.

Convince me that these are proven! I have tried to hard to find evidence and not been able to. (e:Heidi)'s links express hope and builds a lot of castles in the air, but where is the proof?

I started writing a mini paper on why I don't think the coop will get inexpensive anytime or even support WNY's economy in the near future. The basic reason is laid out in your comment. Mass production is never going be a reality for the coop farmers who are into organic farming practices. Don't take my word for it. Read this essay: :::link::: by a bonafide farmer in the US.

To summarize that essay:
-- -- Growing disease free crops means that both the seeds your use and the water you use needs to be completely microbe and germ free. However, the essential basis of being alive is the same for seeds and disease causing bacteria, fungi and other parasites. So there is no way you can grow one without the other if you are not in sterile lab conditions. Farms can hardly be called sterile so you will need to employ chemical means to discourage the microbial growth from overwhelming your seed growth. Strict sanitary conditions don't come by magic. They come through chemical elimination of microbes.

-- The "organic" alternative for chemical weed control is summer fallow :::link:::
and deep tillage :::link::: If you read Borlaugh's works (I did as a part of my high school botany project), you will see how these practices failed miserably in the 1930s, brought famines and essentially laid the ground for reforms that resulted in the green revolution.

-- Discontinuing fungicide use in high starch crops is very likely to lead to repetition of the Irish potato famine of the 1800s and at a much wider scale and among a larger variety of crops. Organic pesticides are under research but are nowhere near any practical use right now.

-- Using manure is not very viable when you don't have an additional big animal farm and mass production. Manure does not come from thin air. Experimental use of somewhat unsafe sources of nitrogen result in e.coli disasters of the scale seen in Germany not too long ago.

Also, what about FDA regulation and inspection for produce safety? Organic farmers never go out of their way to make inspections easy for the FDA. This is why the e.coli disaster happened in the first place.

Organic farmers are like children who have not been vaccinated. Their crops are protected against disease ONLY if their neighbouring farms and practices have taken measures to check disease and pests on their farms. If there are no neighbouring diseases and pests, your weak and unprotected farms will obviously not be affected and you just might get better yields. Blight and pests don't see the organic boundary. They spread like chaos if allowed to. Chances are the farms are surviving because their big neighbours are spraying.

If every farmer went organic on this planet, the 99% of the world who doesn't shop at the coop cannot afford food. There will be global starvation.

I could go on and on this topic. Organic is a niche market for the rich who can afford it, but please don't ask me to believe that encouragement of this practice as the coop is doing has any future roles to play in
a) relieving poverty
b) reducing food prices
c) impacting the environment.

Unless I see hard scientific evidence and perhaps another resurrected Norman Borlaugh introducing an organic green revolution, I will continue to respect conventional chemical based farming, mass sustainable production of food, lower prices for food because of mass production, means of providing fish to the starved. I cannot bury my head in the sand to the absence of proof about the public health benefits of organic produce either.

Organic animal products are a completely different matter because animals have fat content which can retain many chemicals. That is a topic for another day when (e:Paul) complains about the high prices for meat in the coop. (I probably will recommend that he stop eating meat altogether.)

tinypliny - 09/16/11 21:00
% Other than lower price, what exactly is the reason for shopping at Price Rite?

My reasons haven't changed from comments #65063 and #65046 and (e:tinypliny), 48222, (e:tinypliny), 51031 and (e:tinypliny,48288) The store has made me eat healthier, not repent not having a car once every week, survive the hated 8 months of constant snow without waiting for a bus for 2 hours in the cold, shop in less than 15 minutes when I sometimes work for 30+ hours and for all this I am ever grateful.

metalpeter - 09/16/11 19:35
Let me add a but to that.... Cause as you see with any argument every problem can be solved by one thing that will never happen... Back in when ever before I was born you had poor people but see back then it was different see families stayed together and people looked out for each other... But see then there was this War On Drugs that thing where the CIA let drugs into the country and they sell them in the Ghetto... What that does it... It sends fathers and sometimes mothers to Jail and puts a lot of stress on some poor areas... and it is the big cycle that repeats its self... The War on Drugs is Really a war on the poor...


You have to have both rich and poor well unless you change the Economic system... Now there are some parts to that I would be in favor of... I would love to see some kind of mix where everyone gets as an example a dollar a day and you work hard and do good things then your pay goes up and people who don't have the skills to work or the desire are told of where classes are you take the class and if it gives you a job then you get more...Oh don't say the S word you get thrown out of the country cause that means you are a commie... Maybe we could learn something from them...

Is there enough money for everyone in this country... Before out sourcing and at some times Yeah there was... Now no... The rich stay that way and aren't going to hand over their profits... Maybe if we stopped going to other countries to fight wars some money might go to poor schools.... But as long as in this country it is about profit 1st the poor will stay that way...

But that brings up a bigger question ..... Should the poor be helped? If so why? Are they Not Adults? Can they fend for themselves? Before you say yes to this think of all the people who get mad about their taxes helping people who don't want to work... I say it is yes... But how far is to far... If I'm able to work and pay bills is it fair that my money helps people who are not able to.... I say if you are not able to they should have a program where you go work some place for free like say united way or something like that and then they submit your hours and a review of your work and if it is good after 3 weeks a check is sent to the companies you have bills with? but you don't want to work no money for you....

I still say though there isn't enough money to go around.. If the rich could make the same amount of money saying you want fries with that as an example why not then?

YesThatCasey - 09/16/11 18:16
I'm betting that this notion of 'we can't fix the poor' existed before the Great Depression as well, but then that catastrophe happened, providing the anger necessary for the New Deal to come about and drastically change what that word meant in this country.

Even though I am very much in a state of hopelessness, it's caused more by the fact that this attitude is prevalent in our culture as opposed to the situation itself. We have tools at our disposal to change it, and while I would much prefer a rocket to a pistol in the current climate, we simply happen to be talking about the pistol at this moment.

metalpeter - 09/16/11 17:40
The way this country is supposed to work is that there is you can be anything you want and ya know what if you come from Europe yeah that might be true but being born here it sure isn't... But that isn't the point really but it is kinda a sub plot...

The idea is that when you first start working for some high school or even earlier.. You have no skills so it is shit job shit pay shit money... Now this isn't all ways the case sometimes someone knows someone so they get a nice $12 hour chevy job when old enough... But generally you can go up the pay scale in a place or in a field as Jobs get better....

Now depending how you define it here is the ugly truth some people have to have shit jobs... Do they really have Jiz Mopers? Well people want to get off and they make a mess so someone has to clean it up... Less dirty example is cleaning a stadium many people wouldn't do it they think it is gross. But now lets imagine for a second that we all decided lets be clean and toss out our food and drink containers it is what nice fans do... Well that person has no job now....

Now I don't know about the Hiring Practices of Wegmans as an example but I know every year they are all ways in the top 100 employers nation wide... Yes they do hire college students... But would you hire someone to Cash that has never done it... I would want someone who had proved they could do it... Oh you where at Latina's for 2 years (I shopped there lets see if she has any tude and if not she is hired).... You are much more likely to get that job...

Not everyone who is poor has a bad education and not everyone with a bad education (athletes anyone HA) is poor... But there sure is a big overlap of those two... Again here I don't hire myself but I see two people and see GED and I see Graduated I think ok both people may have struggled or had problems but this person finished ..Hired .... Or person walks in and this is wrong to say but it is true sounds ghetto or says things wrong "Sorry no cashiers but there are stock positions we are looking for" .. Facial Tattoos sorry same answer.....

Not to ad another wrinkle to this but here is the real reason to go to pricerite... Not only poor people go there.. Some people go there to save money like people go to Dollar General some people are cheap and some people like to save money.... Plus it is close.. If you want fruits why go all the way to the co-op when price rite has them? Them coming into Buffalo where Latina's where helps a lot of people out.. Granted they could go to tops (depending on how you define them) there are 2 west side ones... But a place within a few blocks is much better.....

Back to the ugly truth is you can't fix the poor.. There will all ways be that part of society. Now granted some of them will move onto better jobs and make more money or put families together but then new poor people get added....

In terms of Price Rite being the fish you give to someone instead of teaching someone how to fish I disagree.... Can't speak for anyone else though... People in this country sometimes put food last. TV, Car, Couch, clothes, eating out and many things come before it.... Now if I can get a Beef pie say for 64 cents that is say $1 at tops then that saves money plus I don't need to trek all the way over there.....

Just have to add I think I have been to Aldi (in this town every one say it wrong they either say aldi's or aldies yes with an S that isn't there) Once and Never Save-a-lot and they do the same thing (maybe no frills in Canada does the same thing) they have a place with lower cost food and yes there are things that go along with that... But if you buy food there that is part of it.. People who didn't have a job got a job when they moved in and that helps those people out....

Now I can't say if The cheap places to eat help the people who go there more then the coop helps the people who shop there. But what I can say is that it is nice to have the place so people can go wish I had the money to go to that fancy place. But what it kinda does is help people who don't really need the help so that is why I like price rite... Granted the selection often isn't great... But I don't have to worry about how cool or anti cool I am when I shop there....

YesThatCasey - 09/16/11 12:03
I think Heidi did a wonderful job covering most of your important questions in your first reply.

As for your second, I need to return to a question that I posed earlier that was not answered: why do you think they poor are destitute to begin with?

Shopping at the co-op doesn't solely benefit the members of the co-op. In fact, I'd say members have few, if any, direct reasons to care about others shopping there (a few extra pennies a year is hardly a reason). This is why, when it comes to the benefits of frequenting the establishment, I have provided the impact of chains on local communities. These were hard facts on the realities that the chain model has on a region, not on the 3500 members you are focusing on.

If we follow the scenario you are painting, where only the co-op exists, then we should also include some of the positives of that growth: efficiency gains through mass production, increase in buying power, increased employment with fair-wage jobs, and an increase in the amount of capital that remains within the region. Some of these factors will result in a reduced cost/price, and all of them translate into a reduction in poverty, the very reasons you are saying that people need Price Rite to begin with. Essentially, it comes down to the proverbial 'providing fish or teaching how to fish'. Price Rite is a short-term fix that some people are forced to rely on, but it is not a solution in any way, and is actually a part of the underlying problem.

Other than lower price, what exactly is the reason for shopping at Price Rite? This still seems to be the central part of your argument, which I've acknowledged can (unfortunately) be a very justifiable reason for going there. I'm mainly talking about when the option exists, the co-op is the better choice, and I'm not sure I've seen evidence or premises contrary to that.

tinypliny - 09/16/11 11:01
I found this thread the other day: :::link:::

Over the span of discussion in this thread, I kept questioning and dissecting my motives in supporting Pricerite and not being so impressed with the Coop. Unfortunately, the most direct conclusions out of all this spirited discussion strikes me as sad, unfortunate and most striking. The poor cannot afford to shop at the coop. The divide between socioeconomic line is real and stark when it comes to food.

There are more poor in a population than rich. That means, if left to the coop alone, the poor will have no options but to eat the subsidized corn sugar containing junk. There are very few chances of healthy options ending up on their plates even if they wanted them. Is it any wonder that disease runs rampant in the population then? Sure, supporting the coop might be good for the 3500 members, it might be beneficial to the handful of farmers in the coop, impact environment in their handful of farms, might envelop coop shoppers in a halo of having helped this select few. But I still ask, how does this benefit the rest of the population who are not among the 3500, the majority of whom don't have any means to get the produce from the coop.

I understand the economic arguments that Casey's been making. But an economy is not run by 3500 people alone. In addition, I am asking myself, do I care more about the arguments about the not so obvious effects on the economy or direct effects of the food quality and the substantial and immediate health effects of affordable good food?

To put it in the most bluntest way possible, I hover just above the federal poverty line. It would be great if I could inherit the halo of having shopped at the coop and sustain the diet that I prefer (~95% fresh vegetables and fruits) at my income level. However, my means preclude one or the other of these choices. I choose health over the halo, because for me, the costs of ill-health are too massive and too irreparable to be done away by the halo of supporting the principles of the 3500.


I see CSA shares again in my future.

metalpeter - 09/15/11 17:42
@Heidi that is pretty interesting about it being a coop and I didn't know about urban roots, I think coops are a great idea, Just don't think they are as helpful to people who couldn't or we wouldn't allow to serve us there and who don't have the money... I still don't buy into the organic idea.... I'm not saying it isn't better for you but... I think it is really a way to shoot up prices... Kinda like when some product doesn't really change but they point out how much fiber or how it is low fat or something... What I mean by that is every product has a certain percentage mark up and since it is organic they can use a high percentage....

What I wonder though is with all these food problems (ecoli and not going to try and spell listeria ) is if some of these chemicals should be used more?

heidi - 09/15/11 10:37
The coop definitely has better business practices - well treated workers is just one element (living wage, health ins, good & safe working conditions). They also have serious environmental consciousness and action. Yes, members get dividend checks based on how much we've spent there over the prior year. It's not much but I'd rather support the better business practices and not have the sole focus on be on the profitability of the business as it is with any C corporation. Coops are owned by their members. Urban Roots is also a cooperative. Members pay for a share of the corporation and have a vote in its operations (democratic ownership), the membership elects the board, but most importantly, it's for the mutual benefit of its members. That's why members get discounts on stuff that nonmembers don't. Lexington is a consumers cooperative but there are other types. For example, True Value is a cooperative and its members are retail hardware businesses. The business buys in and gets the benefit of shared nationwide advertising and better negotiated deals with suppliers/manufacturers.

The relationship that the coop has with local farmers helps the farmers go or stay organic, which is a major environmental benefit to WNY. The organic farmers also have better conditions for the animals. This is (re)developing long term sustainable agriculture.

There's a lot of research summarized on the BALLE website (Business Alliance for Local Living Economies). here's just one article about the impact that locally owned businesses have on local economies :::link:::

metalpeter - 09/14/11 18:47
@Paul yeah I never use Coupons either.... It is to much work really you have to go ok this brand with coupon or this brand on sale.... I have things I like and I get them when on sale....

I admit I'm one of those Americans who love food and I'm like you in a way but mine is for lunch and dinner and not shopping I have no problem breaking the $10 mark at mighty taco as an example wait broke $12 the other day in fact and oh it was so good....

Just got back from Wegmans I forgot how great it is Chunky a sale for under $2 awesome... Randomly got a great pretty and nice Cashier oh yeah Got two Aero Bars almost bought some Japanese candy but skipped that.... Of course of the shoppers and workers are a nice bonus plus you gotta be good to keep a job there so.... But can't all ways go there....

metalpeter - 09/14/11 18:42
To Be honest I'm not sure how a real co-0p works.... What I will say in when you buy a fancy building with lots of fridge space you gotta pay for it some how so prices go up.... So can't say if this is a real co-0p... I thought they way they are supposed to work is that everyone who pays is a part owner. If you work there or give time you get a bigger discount then just paying to shop there... Then when there is a profit that would get split up to all the members in some form... I assume that people who are invested in it like they gave money or work there would get a bigger cut? Now then non members pay more... Wait Hold what the fuck you mean it is Socialist god dam it there is that evil word fuck! I think the co-op is a great idea but wonder how much of a real co-op it is? I wonder how many members just show up and buy and take no part in it.... In a real co-op all the members take part some how and not just buy stuff or at least maybe I don't understand ?

metalpeter - 09/14/11 18:36
Not going to debate the #s but what I will say is that there is a factor with wall-mart. There are many towns that when a Wal-Mart moves in people get jobs there but what happens is that people of said town stop shopping at local places for food, clothes, and all kinds of other stuff cause Wal-Mart is cheaper and then those places close... But that isn't wal-marts fault that is the people who Know "Joe the Plumber" but yeah know what fuck Joe I can get this pipe for half price at Wal-Mart... Yes I do get the buying everything one place thing I get that... But places that close have to fit into that stat of wages dropping... But where the big number comes in is that Wal-Mart pays less then other places in the Area so when you do the math with their employees of course that takes down the number.... The same thing would happen in cities where say Google or some high paying place moved in they pay more then everyone else so it raises the Average pay it is just an average if I understood it correctly......

tinypliny - 09/14/11 15:07
The coop claims to have 3500 members and on its page, says that shopping at the coop benefits these 3500 members. What is the average income/household member of these 3500 members? Where do these members lie on the Federal Poverty Scale? Are these 3500 members all that matter in reviving the economy of WNY? What is a better business practice? Are you sure the Coop has a significantly better business practice than Pricerite? To be honest, I don't understand the business model of the Coop. It has 3500 members/owners. Do these members/owners receive a cheque in the mail for the profits made at the Coop? Do you, (e:Paul)? Who benefits from the profits made at the Coop? What benefits do farmers get from selling to the coop? Do we really know the answers to these questions? Where can I find answers?

Agreed there is not much research on Pricerite. Adopting the widely publicised criticisms against Walmart is an easy way to back up your arguments. But I am still interested in specifically hearing why you think the coop is so much better.

The basic reason why I shop at Pricerite comes down to the fact that rent and utilities takes up 70% of my stipend, I spend the rest on food and even more food. I think I save around 2% every month. Shopping at pricerite has helped me save 4% or so. It's not a big gain. It's a simple equation for me right now. Shop at coop = go broke. Shop at wegmans = waste time + live from cheque to cheque.

This discussion takes me back to when I was subscribed to a CSA because I believed that was the best thing to do. I read this small personal statement of a farmer earlier :::link:::
I want to go back to subscribing to a CSA again.

tinypliny - 09/14/11 14:30
An article about % markup broken down by aisle: :::link:::

tinypliny - 09/14/11 07:48
Casey, I will counter this weekend when I have some more mindspace but just wanted to drop you a note that I didn't detect any snippiness and would love it if you would please post more. :-)

Elitist jerkface? hehee, or slightly ocd weird foody? :-)

YesThatCasey - 09/14/11 03:55
Love that list. Not being able to get past the brain-like form, I've never consumed one myself, so I trust your expertise. I have left it open to the possibility that the cost may very well not be justified. The side-conversation that resulted has been enjoyable nonetheless.

Also, after rereading my post just now, I'm nervous it may have come off a bit snippy. If I'm not just being paranoid, let me clear the air by saying that wasn't intended. Just a mix of bluntness and the sharing of emotional sentiment (always got me in trouble when working towards my degree).

paul - 09/14/11 02:50
Wow I never expected this to be so interesting but just to reel it back for second. The whole point of this was that I:

a. Love spending lots of money on food. I often spend $15-20 on lunch alone.
b. I love expensive luxury food items (caviar, seafood, high quality meats, fancy exotic fruits, etc)
c. I will pay extra just not to wait in line.
d. I never look for deals, I don't use coupons.
e. I generally assume the more expensive one of any product is better and buy that one.
f. I am a food snob and generally an elist jerkface.

.....and yet to me $4.59 for a softball size cauliflower was starting to seem redic. I mean, the coop hasn't starting treating its workers better all of a sudden and I never paid $4.59 for a softball sized cauliflower before. Maybe if it was cooked for me. Maybe it was just a bad cauliflower/berry season.

YesThatCasey - 09/13/11 22:59
"I am simply saying that when you are economically disadvantaged..."

Trust me, I don't need to be told about the economically disadvantaged; I was one. I grew up on the west side, dirt poor, so I'm quite familiar with the people you are describing to me, as they were my friends. There were times in my life where I had two outfits and ate lentils for most of my meals. That is precisely why this attitude is disheartening to me. Saying that it's fine that someone can put in 60 hours of their life simply to make ends meet? I think we can do a bit better than that. And if we, the consumers, don't start trying to change that attitude, you can be damn sure the market won't magically begin offering fair wages.

Why do you think these people are destitute to begin with?


"I am not going to be undervaluing the worth of even entry-level jobs..."

Excellent. Then let's take into consideration that when a Walmart (since research on Price Rite is nonexistant) opens and provides those jobs you are valuing, research shows that 1.4 jobs are lost in the region for each one that they created. This is what pisses me off about the current political sound bite of calling the affluent and corporations "job-creators". Only demand creates jobs. The demand for food is already there, all you need is a supplier. The question is: will the supplier adhere to fair business practices? Will they be conscious (this is the context of my original use) of the impact their decisions have on the community and especially their employees?


"...and not uplifting the community."

Regional payroll decreases by 1.2 million when a Walmart is opened. I wouldn't call that uplifting.


"What you seem to be expecting any department store you shop at to do is called social reform."

Again, no. I am saying that I am willing to pay more when I know that a greater portion of that money is going towards the appropriate parties, and that a fair amount is going to the people involved in the process. I don't believe that whomever offers it to me at the cheapest price is the right seller. Your purchase supports both the product and the business practices behind it. I am not talking about community involvement beyond that.


"What kind of capital is being kept in the region?"

Chains will funnel about 35%, to as high as 60%, of the revenue outside of the region where the product was purchased. While I imagine the grocery industry would fall on the low end of that range since they have the smallest margins of any private industry, it's a massive number regardless. The extent of the local product that they carry will also reduce this number.


"How does it help Buffalo's population who work and shop at pricerite currently better their lot?"

Most Price Rite consumers wouldn't benefit from shopping at the co-op, hence why they shop at Price Rite. Many simply don't have the option, while others have economical justifications when looking at the immediate picture. But, for those of us that have the opportunity to use our buying power to support fair wages or better business practices, I hope we adequately value that power.

Personally, I think the impact of not having back-office positions is equally damaging, but that would be a longer discussion and I don't have the endurance for it right now.

metalpeter - 09/13/11 17:50
Now what this brings up is that there are many levels to this economy... I went to Price Rite today to get some juices and even though it is a trek Want to get to Wegman's or Wends to get some Chunky it is on sale... Now I'm able to do this. I'm not middle class but I'm not poor but I don't have the money to live on Richmond or Elmwood (gas bills sorry I gotta be warm during the winter) so I can do this... But I got a couple of kids or a maybe a car that works when it wants to or other things in my way I have to go to either the cheap place or the close place for food... Yes I have seen people buy an entire cart with food and catch a cab that has to be crazy.....

There are different levels in this country ranging from very poor to paying someone to count the money rich.... These different money levels require different ways to live and ways to buy stuff...

The best example of this and as much as I think it is predatory based on culture and picking on the poor I also get that it is needed is Rent - A- Center... I'm not going to look up the math.. But you take a TV or Couch or anything and you mark up the Value... Then you let people pay on it weekly or bi-weekly... If they make it to the end of the year they just paid 2 or 3 times the amount of money they would have for that... But see many of these people things happen money goes away they can't save they don't have money so if they tried to save up for say leather couch and 33 inch TV they would be sitting on the floor not having anything to watch.... If you run out of money you just don't pay them and the stuff goes back... You get money get a different TV...

Back in High School the place you didn't want to be seen was
K-mart it was like hey what are you doing here so you just didn't mention it that was the poor peoples place...Nothing wrong with K-Mart really... But there are many levels at both the working and buying end....

Why does everyone think being a Waitress is so great... You get paid less then Minimum wage since you get tips...But what if you are no good? What if when you start you get the old crowd who think shiny is good or who don't have the money to tip them selves but no one goes after a Restaurant cause in America food is our God.....

metalpeter - 09/13/11 17:35
@(e:yesthatcasey) : This isn't aimed only at you it is kinda more of a general idea... I get sick of hearing the idea that Pricerite, Wal-mart and the Casino (the buffalo one) can't be counted as adding jobs cause they are shit pay.... They are a lot better pay then the job you don't have... Also if one could get a job at say Target or some better place do you think they would work at Wal-Mart...UM NO! There are many people who can only find work at this level of place.......

Now granted this was a different age and many less Minimum wage ups ago say around 11 years ? I worked at Wilson Farms.. I stocked but had friends who where cashiers and management or what level it was... Now some of this is based on when you where hired vs. when wages went up but after about 4 years you hit your peak with out doing something that would give you a raise like maybe ordering stuff or things along that line. If you where a cashier at your peak pay if you could get a Job at wegman's your starting pay would be higher then working at the tops owned wilson farms for 4 years... Now back then it wasn't really possible though....

tinypliny - 09/13/11 11:56
% Price Rite seems to have negotiated low prices on their deals with farmers that they then pass on to the consumer. ... farmers are grossly underpaid for the grueling work that goes into the creation of their product,... profits go towards people at the top instead of those doing the actual work.

I want to address this as well. Have you ever noticed that economy chains like Pricerite oftentimes have products and food that are very close to their expiry date? Haven't you ever wondered what will happen to this food if it were not negotiated and bought by Pricerite-like chains? In other words, what is the motivation for farmers to negotiate with Pricerite? I agree they are underpaid for their efforts. But what is stopping them from seeking out a well paid option? Why negotiate with pricerite at all? In other words, are we just looking at one aspect of why the food might be cheap (not providing employee health insurance) and ignoring all the others?

tinypliny - 09/13/11 11:47
Also, how are international companies with offices in Buffalo keeping the capital within the region?

tinypliny - 09/13/11 11:38
Your example is a bit different. A philosophy degree is perhaps the most valuable degree when it comes to analyses and logic. It's not for anything that they call the highest degrees in science, a PhD and not an ScD (except perhaps in certain unis in Mass. :))

I am simply saying that when you are economically disadvantaged, don't even have a high school diploma, have sociocultural and family-related roadblocks and several other potentially better-qualified workforce in the pool, working your way up to anything is extremely tough, if not impossible. I am not going to be undervaluing the worth of even entry-level jobs in this circumstance even if it seems like they were all designed to give us cheaper food and not uplifting the community. (Though I really want to argue that providing a way to procure cheap healthy food options are vastly preferable to usually available cheap junk food and do give a community a non-trade-off based choice to be healthier.)

What you seem to be expecting any department store you shop at to do is called social reform. I want to know what kind of social reform the coop has brought to Buffalo? What kind of capital is being kept in the region? How does it help Buffalo's population who work and shop at pricerite currently better their lot? What is the coop doing for the city of Buffalo to earn so much of your respect? I honestly would like to know. How much of what they do falls in the category of social reform as you define it? Is social reform equivalent to keeping capital within the region? Or is social reform helping the community get better at perhaps raising the next generation in a healthier fashion?

YesThatCasey - 09/13/11 09:45
I don't get it Tiny. You downplayed the provision of health insurance, then talk about how the Price Rite people are working 3 jobs, and somehow I am supposed to to appreciate the fact that Price Rite provides a job that doesn't include a remotely viable living wage just so we can have cheaper food? I feel like you are proving my point. Not to mention that if Price Rite were not there, another store likely would be, just as there was before it, several times (I still remember when that store was a Bells).

As for who would fill the management positions, having a degree might help, but working within the company often helps more. My degree is in philosophy, not remotely valuable in the business world, yet I worked my way up from a customer service phone jockey to lead analyst for an international company. This was helped by the fact that the call center was located in our North American headquarters. I was able to build relationships with those around me, and the transition was eased. There was no need for a magical tornado.

But, this was all beside my main point, which is that the location of the headquarters and C-level positions in Massachusetts contributes to the funneling of capital out of our region, a 40-year trend that we need to reverse. Factors like distance and income will certainly play a role in the decision to shop at Price Rite over the Co-op, but, in general, it is better for the region to shop at the latter (minus any confirmed price-gouging). No alignment will be assigned to you if you chose otherwise.

This isn't a matter specific to these establishments. It is a general rule, and one that would be nigh impossible to follow absolutely. However, if we put prices at the forefront, and consider a job a job, then we may as well bring a Walmart to E-vil right now.

Ok, I'm off to have my morning Gin and Tonic.

heidi - 09/13/11 00:08
I'm really looking forward to beer club Wednesday. Anyone else wanna join us?

tinypliny - 09/13/11 00:04
That sounded awful and I am a mean person. Sorry. :(

tinypliny - 09/13/11 00:00
And I cannot help putting this vicious mean-spirited jab in and I will because I have a perpetual agenda against addicting substances and am tired of seeing it destroy health around me.

What is unequivocally proven in cell culture labs, in rat models, in human populations, in patient clinics and replicated countless number of times over and over again is the massive ill effects of alcohol.

I don't see any mass exodus of anyone towards quitting that noxious substance.

tinypliny - 09/12/11 23:53
Yes, it is tough to test the pesticide and chemical buildup in the body. Biomarkers to these indices are constantly under development. We probably might make some strides with strengthening the power of the studies if large number of healthy volunteers who a) don't eat organic vegetables and fruits b) eat organic produce c) eat organic animal products and d) don't eat animal products were willing to give us a large chunk of their adipose tissue stores *voluntarily*. That hasn't happened yet.

Also cell-cultures for testing the magnitude of these chemicals are not up to snuff in precision and accuracy even. Even constructing control curves with these cell cultures is a nightmare. I am not just speculating. This is hard and cold knowledge from bitter and recent experiences in the lab.

heidi - 09/12/11 23:23
I like organic because I don't want to ingest the pesticides and chemical fertilizers and they usually taste better. It seems like the pesticide & chemical build up is not something that is well tested for (e:tinypliny)'s statement about "no proven health benefits" of organic.

tinypliny - 09/12/11 23:17
Casey, I am not sure how to answer you but I am going try and describe why I made those jumps intentionally.

Okay, first part today...

Being unemployed and having NO income is the most awful thing in the world. All jobs are not created equal but I am sure millions among us can tell you just how difficult it is to qualify for the more career-path oriented jobs. If anyone realistically wants a management job based in Mass. then I am pretty sure they need qualifications and an education. I know many of the clerks at pricerite on personal terms. I speak with them almost daily. Many are teenage mums and dads with more than one kid and absent fathers and support system, juggling at least three jobs and trying to make ends meet.

Destitute does not even come close to describing the severity of their circumstances. Some don't have a high school diploma. Many have tried wegmans or other stores for jobs and have been turned down. And through it all, they still take the time to smile and ask you if you found everything okay at the store. Is it any wonder that there is massive difference between the demeanor of employees at these two completely different institutions? Entry-level jobs it may be, but it is a job that pays for some meals, some fees, a small portion of their lives instead of the stark alternative of having to seek yet another job further away from homes and pay additional bus fares and spend even more time away from kids.

Even if the "quality jobs" were moved to Buffalo by some wizard of oz like tornado, the demographic that holds jobs at the store right now will not be the ones that get these jobs. It will probably be the clerks at Wegmans and coop.
:/

YesThatCasey - 09/12/11 21:52
Uhh, Tiny, you made a LOT of jumps from my comment.

I never said everything was local, nor did I say that people who don't shop there are evil.

The fact is, however, that Price Rite is based in Massachusetts. Their Back Office, where the quality jobs are located, is far away from here. You can say that they 'created jobs' here, but come on, it's a supermarket. All jobs are not created equal. The jobs they created here are entry-level, arguably with no viable career path (if you want to stay in the region), and certainly not a living wage. Just walk into the Co-op, or Wegman's, then go into Price Rite, and tell me the difference in the expressions on the faces of employees. Maybe I've just been in there on off days (yes, it seems I'm "evil" too, since I occasionally go there), but they've looked destitute.

The Co-op does, of course, import products from out of the region, but the ratio of local product is far higher than any other supermarket in the area. I'm not holding these establishments to some purity test, but I do respect those that put work towards building relationships with local farmers and distributors (such as Guercio's ).

Also, and I'm only speculating here (though I do feel confident about it), but Price Rite seems to have negotiated low prices on their deals with farmers that they then pass on to the consumer. This sounds good to us, being consumers and all, but the reality is that farmers are grossly underpaid for the grueling work that goes into the creation of their product, and the vital role it plays within our society (no food, no society). This is what was behind my sentiment of not being overly concerned with the Co-op costs, as a greater portion of the sale is going to the actual creators of the product, as opposed to the pockets of the middle man. But, that's just the idealist in me that is sick of seeing the bulk of profits go towards people at the top instead of those doing the actual work.

I understand Paul's concern about the prices. It's a good thing to pay attention to. I'm just not so sure there are nefarious reasons behind it, but it is something I will be conscious of as I continue to shop there.

metalpeter - 09/11/11 10:18
Don't get me wrong I love fruit.... But the thing is say I get a thing of blue berries on say sale and a thing of raspberries I could eat the entire carton I mean plastic container of both in about 5 minutes... ok maybe 3.... With it just being me and being short on time instant is quicker and better and doesn't burn or if it does just makes it taste a little better.... That being said now that it is NFL season I'm craving Chili and I used to make that it was ok but not as good as Wegmen's as an example .....

tinypliny - 09/11/11 10:04
I often think about asking you (e:metalpeter), but why don't you get produce more often?

tinypliny - 09/11/11 10:02
Oh and I want to agree with (e:uncut) and say that my views on including fruits and vegetables in your diet, cutting out refined starchy sources, including more fibre, drinking more water, avoiding anything processed and preserved for a long time, buying fresh whenever necessary, taking some time to make your own foods are completely black and white. There is no grey about the emphatically positive benefits of these measures to each and every person's health.

tinypliny - 09/11/11 09:52
But I do want to recommend more fruits and vegetables and less processed and animal-based foods in your diet. It's not as costly as you might think. In fact, if you shop at pricerite, its easy to get a very good and broad selection of produce which meets the criteria for a balanced meal.

tinypliny - 09/11/11 09:50
I can see we agree on every single point, (e:metalpeter). :)

metalpeter - 09/11/11 09:35
I admit it is just me so I don't buy produce not fresh at least but I should have since I could go for a gallon of Chili right now... But the previous comment I started the local thing and if you like tops or Wegman's or Price rite everyone who works there is local... Where the food comes from ah who knows... I say if you want to make sure it is local try some of those Farmers markets or isn't there some huge food place out broadway or one those streets sorry only been past it so don't know the name... The thing with price rite is that they try and give low prices but there are some things because of that... Small Selection (fewer types of same thing), paying for bags, no bagers, and the over all look and feel.... I really need to go buy food I really do.... Location is also very important... The fact is that where the two price rites are do a huge service to a lot of people... Not only price wise but getting to those other stores could be tough... What I like about tops is everything that is on sale is in the add you know what you are getting...Price rite is cheap... If wegmans was where Tops is though I might say Fuck the price and just go..... I love it and part of it is how it is laid out and how nice it is... Now there are all sorts of things there I never use but it is a nice option to have ... I could go there and eat then shop how awesome is that.... If I had a kid I could change them in a clean bath room and we could both eat and get back to the shopping...Yes you pay for that... But all that has to be maintained so both there and at tops you get jobs to cart people... some say well that is a bad job well better then the job you don't have and I bet those helpers get paid more then a lot of other part time jobs.... The Point is every where you shop you help support local people to some extent...... Maybe that was my point lost it in there someplace...

metalpeter - 09/11/11 09:23
The Local thing is tricky... Take yesterday I went to sportsmen's and was wondering if the kitchen was open and got a great burger I think it tasted great and I would rather eat there then as much as I love burger king- Well burger king.... The first thought is it is a huge chain and those are bad... But Wrong! First of all everyone who works there is local... See that is one of the things that bothers me a little bit about Artvoice's best of Buffalo... I know they want all the places to be local and not chains and I get that... But what they seem to lose is that all the cooks live here...All the bartenders live here... So yes there is a set way things are run in chains but the people are still local...... Now I don't know the way Burger king is set up but like most chains someone owns the franchise and has that as how they make their living now granted that doesn't force them to live here but guessing most would...

metalpeter - 09/11/11 09:18
Gotta say a lot of great points made but I think Organic is a scam it is fake it is a food trend.... So they don't use any thing to preserve it but it comes from the other coast I say bullshit... It is a way to tell people this is better for you and jack the prices up....Sorry I don't think it is real...

metalpeter - 09/11/11 09:15
Not sure if I followed everything but I do have a few we shall call them nuggets or comments to add. But before I do that I wonder is for Halloween (e:Paul) will have some fruit hanging in front of cock and then be wrapped up only in shrink wrap and then have a sign that says taste me?

tinypliny - 09/11/11 00:20
This is a complete hoot. Thanks for making me laugh! :)

uncutsaniflush - 09/11/11 00:00
@ (e:tinypliny) -

Grey areas go both ways. You wrote "The . . . in my post was the grey area. Or was it not?" Yes, you were "grey" but you responded to me as if I was "black and white." I know that English is a second language for me. But I'm fairly certain that "often" and "always" do not mean the same thing in English just as they don't mean the same thing in Polish.

To put another way, I said "often" but you responded to me as if I said "always". Perhaps your eyes are blind to "grey" in other people.

My gloss on what is happening in our discussion is that you are responding to only what I am writing today and ignoring the possibility that I might be referring to events previous to this discussion.

You seem to be discussing the discussion about the co-op. Whilst I am discussing our discussions.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 21:01
The . . . in my post was the grey area. Or was it not?

tinypliny - 09/10/11 20:59
Hmmm.. quite. I really don't see it. I don't like the coop but I do shop there because I like that it sells stuff in bulk. If it were black and white, I would say, I don't like the coop absolutely, don't see any of its redeeming points, it is completely an evil place because of so many reasons and I totally don't shop there because of all of these totally black and white strikes against the coop. What is your concept of black and white? Maybe my blacks and whites are differently defined.

uncutsaniflush - 09/10/11 20:13
Oh my stars and satelites!!!! Ms Tiny, you just proved my point. I said "you may not realize it, but you often present arguments that are very binary (black and white)" To which you replied "Hey!! How is saying . . . any way black and white?" Q.E.D.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 19:17
Maybe you agree with me in black and white but not in greyscale nd colour?? *here I wiggle my eyebrows for greater effect*

tinypliny - 09/10/11 19:16
Hey!! How is saying that I primarily shop at pricerite because their prices seem reasonable, that I don't pay much attention to the organic brigade because I don't think there is proof enough, don't agree that coop is really quite so local or that pricerite is socially unconscious AND that I like to shop at coop because I can get small amounts of bulk stuff in any way black and white?

uncutsaniflush - 09/10/11 19:04
Oh my ears and whiskers! I do declare, ms tiny, the things you say!!! Speaking of feeling the need to balance out views, I often find myself wanting to balance out your views even if (or perhaps especially if) I tend to agree with you.

You may not realize it, but you often present arguments that are very binary (black and white) when all I see are shades of grey mixed with shades of gray!!!!

If you haven't noticed, I like to argue. And you give me lots of material to argue about. Thank you.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 18:15
I "feel the need" to balance out views all the time. Not all social consciousness is about giving health insurance to employees. Generating job opportunities where there was unemployment and making healthier food available at affordable prices where there are lesser privileged communities counts as massive social consciousness in my mind. Making produce and healthier chemical free choices available in an environment where other shoppers are not looking down their noses at you is a big deal. I don't see the coop doing any of this.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 18:09
HEHE, I did actually ask (e:Paul) why he wanted that cauliflower. We had a very lengthy talk about it all throughout our walk home from pricerite. I am not sure what our conclusions were because we went totally off-topic by the time we reached the walgreens corner, we will continue it someday. :)

tinypliny - 09/10/11 18:06
I have noticed the taste difference in organic produce as well. I think some of them are sharper in taste. Produce at home is mostly all organic (because many farms find it cheaper to use the free abundant cow manure as fertilizer rather that pay for the chemical fertilizer). I think mass-produced vegetables and fruits become water logged and lose some of their intensity while traveling distances.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 18:03
LOL, are we arguing or are we not (e:uncutsaniflush)? I don't shop primarily at the Coop. Never have. I like occasionally shopping at the Coop mainly because it helps me get the bulk grains and seeds I want without having to buy huge quantities that I will never use. As paul mentioned I went shopping with him to Pricerite yesterday and Casey said he'd much rather spend his money on local stores because it was the right thing to do. By that extension I am horribly evil because I shop at pricerite all the time. I just wanted to tell you why I don't feel guilty about shopping at pricerite and no one else should feel guilty either.

uncutsaniflush - 09/10/11 17:53
On a personal level, I find that some organic fruits and vegetables taste better than their "conventional" counterparts. But I don't go out of my way to eat organic. Perhaps, (e:tinypliny), you should ask (e:paul) why he wanted an organic cauliflower in the first place.

Come on, organics lovers, you know you're out there, please tell ms. tiny why organics are better.!!!

uncutsaniflush - 09/10/11 17:49
(e:tinypliny) - I'll expand my "don't shope there" statement just for you (and everyone else by proxy). If you don't like the co-op or any other store, for any reason whatever, don't shop there. There are lots of other stores.

Since you feel that you need to "balance out this view that the coop is oh-so-holy when it comes to a) social consciousness b) local sourcing and of course pricing", perhaps you should organize a protest and invite the media.

Shine the light of truth on the Lexington Avenue Co-op. In the end, it can only make the co-op better.

As to Guercio's truck at the co-op, I've seen it there as well more than once. Like you, I assume that produce is being delivered.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 16:52
To me, organic is always overrated. Thus far, there has been no conclusive scientific evidence that eating organic foods has made anyone healthier than opposed to say, eating a fruit and vegetable based diet.

I now suspect that the whole suspected association between pesticides, fertilizers and whatnots with disease is not because of their content in fruits and vegetables but because of their active concentration up the food chain and their obvious accumulation in fatty tissues of animal products.

I wonder if analyses have looked at what benefit (if at all) organic foods have had on meat eaters vs. vegetarians and if any benefit from eating organic food stands out above and beyond what you might get from eating a vegetarian diet alone.

tinypliny - 09/10/11 16:46
BTW, how is wrapping everything is plastic end to end even if the plastic wrapper screams "ORGANIC!!!!" in quite possibly leachy black and green print even organic?

tinypliny - 09/10/11 16:41
I mentioned the Guercio connection this time because I wanted to point out that there is not a single decent grocery store anywhere that can claim that ALL of what they sell is local because no one can be all local and expect to be frequented by a varied clientele.

If the coop buys from Guercios (I know it does, I have seen the Guercio's truck parked in the coop lot far too many times on many occasions for it to be merely a friendly "and how are you doing? kind of a visit.) then it is not a reach to assume that its sources are similar to Guercio's sources. Guercio's is not all local so the same applies to Coop. To be fair, the coop probably has more local produce than Guercios or any other store in the area because of its links to farmers (?).

Yes, I understand everyone needs to make a profit. :) Unlike last time ((e:tinypliny,40090)) when then whine was completely about prices, I wanted to balance out this view that the coop is oh-so-holy when it comes to a) social consciousness b) local sourcing and of course pricing.

uncutsaniflush - 09/10/11 16:07
If price is the only consideration, there is probably very little reason for anyone to shop at the Lexington Avenue Co-op. Just about anything it sells can be obtained elsewhere at a lower price.

Don't like the prices at the co-op. There is a simple solution available to everyone, don't shop there. If you are a member-owner, there is also a more complicated solution - work from within with the staff and other member-owners to change the pricing structure and sourcing of produce and other merchandise.

(e:tinypliny)'s commented that some of the produce at the co-op is just "marked up resales" from Guercio's Assuming that the co-op actually buys some produce from Guerico's, as the kids used to say, "well, duh"!! Guercio's is also a food and produce WHOLESALER (mostly to the restaurant industry). Does anyone really expect a store to sell produce for what it pays for it?

tinypliny - 09/10/11 14:53
I am not sure pricerite deserves that jab about how it it funneling money out of the region and how it is socially unconscious. Do you, for instance, know how many jobs it has created in downtown Buffalo? How is that not being socially conscious? Also, how do you know none of their produce is local? I know that people like to point out how many things are from out of the States but there are an equal number of produce elements that come from within WNY farms. It is not as if the Coop has everything 100% local. Just go in one day and do a survey of their produce section and origins. I might just do that when I am done with my crazy phase of work.

In fact a good chunk of what the coop sells is just marked up resales form what Guercio's has. If you look at Guercio's produce they too have a mix of local and foreign produce. You cannot claim to be a varied produce store if you decide that everything is going to be sourced locally. That is why farm-shares exist.

paul - 09/10/11 13:02
I am a huge supporter of the coop in general. Ask anyone. I spend a ridiculous amount of money there. Its just that recently, I am pretty sure they raised their prices and its getting to the point where I have to ask myself - am I being ripped off.

Besides, if its all about locals helping locals, feel good, mushy stuff why would they ever even be selling that california/mexico, mini cauliflower for $4.59 in the first place when it s the height of harvest season here. Just think about how not green it is to have organic stuff shipped across the world and wrapped in plastic when there is so much food here right now.

Obviously, in the winter its a whole other story. If you charged my $4.59 for that same cauliflower in winter I would at least think it was more reasonable.

Part of the problem was how tiny it was. It was literally the size of a softball.

YesThatCasey - 09/10/11 00:36
To some extent, this is a normal part of local buying, along with the fact that the co-op has a reputation for treating their workers well and providing health insurance, not a common thing in a supermarket.

I'd rather pay more at a local, socially conscious organization than at a chain where the money will be funneled out of our region.

paul - 09/09/11 22:52
I see a holloween costume brewing.

uncutsaniflush - 09/09/11 21:26
Goshers! Tiny made you go to pricerite? I always thought she was a kitten with a whip!!!! Maybe she can find some shoes with a 2 1/2 inch kitten heel. Despite belonging to a co-op of co-ops, the Lexington Avenue Co-op does not have the buying power of Price-rite or Wegmens.

Unless one is movtivated by moral or political reasons, I recommend shopping around for bargains. Price-rite has many bargains. the trade off is a limited selection.

paul - 09/09/11 21:17
Tiny made me go to pricerite. I got organic milk, organic free range eggs, regular marscapone, 4 chiobanni yogurts, an aloe leaf, an avacadi and a box of organic cookies all for $19.

uncutsaniflush - 09/09/11 17:24
A bit of quick research on the googlewebs reveals that organic produce costs 70 to 100% more than "conventional" produce on average and that the markup on organic produce is on average 50% more than for conventional produce.

I wonder if the co-op follows that retail markup model.

metalpeter - 09/09/11 17:03
I think though there is a factor that may or may not play into this price.... When I was a kid your discount was based on how much you worked for them... Think it was called volunteerism ... If you helped stock the place or maybe cash people out of what ever you got a bigger discount it was "A real co-op" back then and over time it grew.... It would be interesting to see how many members just shop there? I'm guessing more people should be part of it and not just shop there?

uncutsaniflush - 09/09/11 15:09
How bad was it here? I reckon it all depends on your perspective.

May had over 8 inches of rain, the average is 3.35. Farmers could not plant crops because it was too wet. So many crops got a late start. For some crops, yields were smaller. Others were limited to one growing cycle instead of two. Then there was almost no rain for almost 5 or 6 weeks (including most of July) in some places. So farmers had too much rain and then not enough.

And then, there was the heat. In July the mean temp was 85 F. The historical average mean temp for July is 75 F. It is the 6th hottest summer on record for western New York. Some western NY crops do not yield as high when the temps are so high.

I'm very glad that you guys had a bumper yield this summer. But I think would be an error to assume that growing vegetables in your backyard is the same thing as growing vegetables acres at a time on a farm.

paul - 09/09/11 11:37
Having both blueberry bush, blackberry bush and pear tree plus vegetable garden (tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini, peppers) I can say we had a great growing season with a bountiful harvest. I can understand if other places had bad growing seasons, but how was it bad here? The farmers market seems to have plenty of stuff. Maybe the problem is that they get so many things from california/mexico. I wonder how much of that $4.59 is transport.

You are right though I should look into it more.

uncutsaniflush - 09/09/11 10:51
(e:paul) - have you paid attention to the weather this summer? It's been a crappy growing season pretty much everywhere even Western New York. There have been record high temps and droughts out west and record high rainfall that resulted (and is still restuling) in flooding just about everywhere else.

I'm sure (especially if you are member) that you could ask to find out the "profit" margin on the produce prices that you are complaining about. You might even be surprised at how little of the 4.59 the co-op actually keeps.

And, if you are a member, you, personally, can do something about the produce prices. You could organize your fellow members to affect a chance on the produce pricing policies.

Remember at the co-op, if you're a member, you're an owner. You have the power to change things.

leetee - 09/09/11 01:25
I would LOOoooOOOoove a Whole Foods around here. And a Trader Joe's!

libertad - 09/08/11 11:08
Very nice.