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10/05/2009 18:31 #49936

Bible too Liberal?
Category: religion
I need to post more often. It seems like every time I post it's about some crazy news that's about to make my head explode.... well, here's another one..

Conservatizing the Bible


It seems like the "Conservative Bible Project" is really just some dudes with a website. Maybe it's just a fringe project, but something about it just strikes me as wrong.

I guess it bothers me that many of today's conservatives act like they own Christianity. But Conservatives conveniently ignore core principles of the bible and Jesus' teachings. Jesus preached non-violence, and he helped the poor, and told people to love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus rejected greed, violence, the glorification of power, wealth.....

Some bible quotes to back me up:::::
"Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. [Luke 12.15.]
Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 19:23]
You cannot serve both God and Money. [Matthew 6:24.]
If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. [Matthew 19:21]

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. [Matthew 6:15]
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [Matthew 5:9]
I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute you; [Matthew 5:44]

I guess that's the point right... the Bible has a liberal bias. "Blessed are the peacemakers"?!?!? That's some hippie commie pinko subversive stuff. (maybe they don't think that belongs in their religion)

I think the big idea behind the bible was to establish a guidebook that helps humanity live to the best of our potential. Martin Luther King described it as the "Blessed Community". That's what they mean by "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" the idea is that Heaven is in perfect harmony, achieving that on earth would create a Blessed Community.

I know this is a bit of a touchy subject, and the same people who defend low taxes and limitless wealth may also be the first to organize a bakesale for a friend in need.

But what we tend to see from the conservative movement, is indifference to the poor, an increasing list of enemies to hate, glorification of wealth.... And for people in need, of say, healthcare, we hear, 'you're lazy, you made bad choices, you didn't earn my mercy, I deserve more than you do.'..... I don't know if that's fair, I'm trying to generalize without exaggerating.

Here's some excerpts from the Conservative Bible Project

framework
"Express Free Market Parables; explaining the numerous economic parables with their full free-market meaning"

"Socialistic terminology permeates English translations of the Bible, without justification. This improperly encourages the "social justice" movement among Christians. "



It just rubs me the wrong way. I'm no expert on the bible or religion. But I just wanted to talk about this for a sec.



jason - 10/05/09 21:19
David. Hope all is well. Listen, I have tried arguing the Bible with the holy rollers before. I haven't done very well at that, turns out they know the Bible better than most people. What I've learned is that whether the intentions are good or bad relatively speaking, people attribute their own biases to the things they read, hear, etc. This is true for everyone. For me, in this sense, those who co-opt the Bible to suit their agendas share some traits. If we ever really got a real deal divine message we would argue over it and try to shape it into something to suit our own needs. In my perfect world religion fights those desires.

09/16/2009 19:01 #49789

Healthcare reform that doesn't help
Category: healthcare
Honestly this whole Healthcare thing is making me tired and frustrated. I'm not sure that we are going to get something that actually helps. Washington DC doesn't really care about average people... cause they can't buy campaign commercials.

They released another Healthcare plan today, we waited all summer for this one because it was supposed to be magically "bi-partisan". The bill is proposed by Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, the Finance Committee is supposed to vote on the bill by next week.

I'm calling it the "Baucus Bill" because he proposed it and he's probably the only guy who likes it (besides Insurance Company executives). I'm sure he worked his ass off trying to get Republicans and Democrats to agree, and that's a fine goal, but if the bill doesn't work, it's useless.

The Baucus Bill is the worst of both worlds.... I'm reading more details of this plan as I write, and it just gets worse.

1) Everyone is forced to buy Health Insurance. If you don't you will pay a fine.....
2) No Public Option. You are forced to buy Health Insurance from a Private Company.
3) And you can't buy insurance across state lines.

If you can't afford Health Insurance now, you will be forced to buy it. How much is it going to cost? Nobody knows, but there's nothing in this bill that will make it cheaper. The government option would be cheaper, because they don't have to buy advertisements or pay bonuses, but we don't get a government option. There is no added competition for the insurance companies, there is no incentive for them to lower costs.

4) Some of us get tax credits or subsidies to help us buy insurance. how much and who, is a little fuzzy.
5) Medicaid Income eligibility becomes 133 percent of poverty ($30,000 a year for a family of four) Childless adults making up to 133 percent of poverty ($14,400 for an individual) would be eligible for the first time, after but not till 2014...

This is what bugs me, Health Insurance is expensive, confusing, cruel, and an all around terrible product... Now we are being forced to buy it, and we still have no guarantees that the government will protect us from abuse.

The Washington Post analyzes the cost to individuals more specifically "as many as 4 million of the 46 million people who are currently uninsured would be required to buy coverage on their own, without government help, by some estimates. Millions more would qualify for federal tax credits, but could still end up paying as much as 13 percent of their income for insurance premiums -- far more than most Americans now pay for coverage. People further down the income scale would receive much bigger tax credits, effectively limiting their premiums at 3 percent of their earnings."

Alright, so the government is forcing us to spend money, they do that with car insurance too right? Yes, but you only buy it if you have a car, and nobody forces you to buy a car.

I have a problem with this plan, even if the government picks up all of the tab. If the government told all of us, "Private Health Insurance is too expensive, so we'll buy it for you!" I'm sure that would make a lot of people happy, but it does nothing to control costs! All it is is a gift to the health insurance companies that allows them to keep doing things the same way. "yea but they have to cover all pre-existing conditions now", thanks... apparently we're giving them a huge bailout for the favor.

OK, well, this is not the final plan, this is one bill out of many, but there's been so much emphasis on bi-partisan love that this bill seems like the most important for now... and it's absolute garbage.

A Public Option government plan will be cheaper because it is not for profit, it does not have to advertise and it will have enough people to bargain with insurance companies. Co-ops cannot do that, it would take 8-15 years for them to be competitive.

How are we eliminating waste, inefficiency and redundancy in the healthcare system? That's how we bring down costs. The Baucus plan is useless because it doesn't save us any money, maybe years down the road when a couple of those state based co-ops get enough bargaining power to help people within that state.

We need more guarantee than that. A Public Option or Medicare for All would save us money because it eliminates waste and inefficiency, it could offer cheaper insurance, and it would break the private insurance monopoly.

We have to do something that works.

The news is mostly bad, I'm tired of it. I was going to post some pictures, but I'm still working on that. And in the meantime news keeps happening. I liked the president's speech on healthcare, I think his plan might work, but I don't know how we get there.

Sorry for the rant. I swear I'm going to post about something besides healthcare soon. :)

heidi - 09/17/09 19:50
Good question, (e:Joshua). Are you referring to this perspective? :::link:::

or :::link::: (expanding Rivkin & Casey, focusing on freedom of religion issues)

Here's a broader exploration, likening mandated health insurance purchases to the minimum wage:
:::link:::
Particularly see the link to this PDF from Georgetown Law professor Mark Hall. :::link:::

All of them toss the car insurance analogy - driving a car is a societal privilege and a choice where being alive isn't.

If the proposal was for a universal health system/Medicare for all, this wouldn't even be an issue.
joshua - 09/17/09 15:22
I have a question over the constitutionality of mandating personal health insurance. I've heard comparisons to car insurance, but that doesn't wash.
heidi - 09/16/09 21:04
What he said.

08/13/2009 21:17 #49529

Healthcare Yell Meetin' in Buffalo
Category: healthcare
Not sure if you saw me on TV or not, but I did go down to the, thingy, yesterday outside Brian Higgins' fundraiser at DiTondos

I guess my role was to show that people do support Healthcare Reform, there are a lot of loud people on TV trying to stop it, but there's plenty of people who want big changes, so I was one of those guys, I stayed for about an hour. My sign said "Medicare for All, HR 676" our side of the street was pretty united, "Healthcare for people, not for Profit" "Healthcare for all" that kind of stuff.

There was a big group of anti-people on the other side of the street, I'd say about 80, about double the size of the Pro Healthcare reform side. It was hard to figure out what they wanted. "Stop Socialism" "I'm not your ATM" "Brian we want your Healthcare Plan" anti communism, seemed like they came to vent about everything.. they shouted at us "Get a Job"... lots of stuff. I'd have liked to talk to them, you know me, always up for a good discussion, but they didn't seem to be in a conversational mood.

I took 2 videos, but I found one that is way better.



From WNYmedia.net

That video pretty much sums it up. Personally I enjoy talking to people with different views, finding out what their values are, learning new information, new perspectives... I probably could have had a conversation with a few people in on the Conservative(?) side of the street, but they were drowned out by the Angry Mob crowd who just wanted a target they could shout their frustrations at. They were in no mood to have a conversation with anyone who didn't think like they did. I'm not sure what they were so angry about, lots of different things, it was pretty incoherent. If you believe Limbaugh, they fear that Democrats are trying to sneak Socialist Tyranny into America to take your money and control everything everyone does through an incompetent government bureaucracy... but that's irrational, we live in a Democracy, you're not going to wake up tomorrow and find President Stalin canceling elections and killing off the opposition. Maybe they were protesting corruption, and career politicians.. but I didn't hear much of that. To quote my old teacher, "empty cans make the loudest noise", because of the angry 'Fringe' I don't think anyone got their point across. And why were they chanting "Get a Job"? isn't that kinda like "Get a Haircut Hippie"

Our side was shouting stuff too, about healthcare, but I wasn't really into it, I might want to shout slogans at a politician, but my neighbors? not realy, I'd rather talk about over a beer... But not after we were drunk.. people start swingin'.. not me, but there was some hostility in that crowd.

Oh, and the TV News reports sucked, I hate how they sensationalize everything and frame it as a battle. Yea we were shouting and chanting, that's what you do when you't in the streets with a sign. Eh, who knows, If Brian did have a town hall maybe it would look the same as all the other nonsense I don't know.


more Comedy :) Satire from Red State Update




dcoffee - 08/14/09 14:00
I guess the problem is that people are opposed to healthcare reform based on paranoid rumors about things like "death panels" and "pulling the plug on grandma". The Republican leadership like Newt Gingrich, Chuck Grassley, and Rush Limbaugh are perpetuating these lies. People believe this stuff, and it filters into the discussion (big time, because of a timid media). So we can't even get to rational discussion about what role the Government should play in making Healthcare more affordable, accessible, and better quality. Private Insurance has obviously failed, but we can't even discuss changes in a reasonable manner because the discussion has been poisoned by lies and rumors that inflame people's emotions.

Our democracy is suffering. And this issue is too important.
dcoffee - 08/14/09 11:10
Yea, the current bill is so big and complicated, and there's 2-4 of them so far, we don't even know what the final bill will look like. I think the Democrats should have started with Medicare for All, and negotiated from there. Medicare for All is so much simpler, and we can tell people exactly how it would effect their lives.

It's just amazing the things people are scared of, Eugenics, puling the plug on grandma, death panels, socialism, communism, etc. And it's unfortunate that the news is focusing on the 10% of people who don't really want to have an honest discussion because they won't listen to the other side.

oh, and I'm not scared to be called a Liberal or a Progressive or whatever, but I have no dogma :)
jason - 08/14/09 08:40
BTW, David, I admire that you went out there and demonstrated for your cause. Hardly anyone wants to "get" the other side so it's no surprise some people don't understand why the others are upset. I know you're not a dick and you're sincere about talking over a beer instead of shouting.
jason - 08/14/09 08:36
Why are they upset? Does that question really have to be asked? The government wants to reshape a giant chunk of the American economy, slip the bill through shadily without scrutiny and without debate, lie about the costs and the coverage, call 35-40 percent of the American public extremists, Un-American, a "mob", "Astroturf", and a variety of other unsupportable bullshit terms? And *I* get fucked with from people for calling them Liberal instead of Progressive? People honestly don't understand why their neighbors are freaked out? The Democrats have handled this situation poorly from top to bottom. They have not sufficiently convinced everyone that it is in their best interest to support a dog shit bill.
vincent - 08/14/09 01:21
Thanks for going out and being a counter weight those nut jobs. It just amazes me how people that aren't part of the top 25% tax bracket can be so passionate against their best interest. Not too many of looked like they had any real wealth to protect from the "Millionaires Tax" that has been floated around as a partial way to finance reform. The crotchety old bag was a trip "...Sign a Release! Ha"

If it doesn't pass now it never will, so I can logically understand the push from the Dems. It just saddens me to see how stupid can be, they're the one's "Drinking the Kool-Aid."

08/12/2009 12:21 #49515

Healthcare CEO Profits, & Public Option
Category: healthcare
Today's Special

It bothers me that America spends all this money on Healthcare, but a lot of it doesn't go to medicine, or treatment, or doctors or anything that actually makes us healthy. It goes to profit.

Today I'm picking on this poor millionaire Stephen Hemsley at United Healthcare

image

Including those stock option he makes this much money.
image


Let's just take his salary and bonuses for last year, 3.2 million, that's $3,200,000

That means that per day he made $8,767.12...... every day of the year, even weekends and holidays. almost $9 thousand per day? really? I guess it's because he does such important work right... making people wealthy by denying medical treatment to millions of Americans.

I guess he's getting richer by the day, I looked it up on Forbes.com and they say he's worth $5 billion now.

See for Yourself that goes to a list of healthcare CEOs

And he's not at the top of the list either.

Americans are going bankrupt all the time because of Healthcare bills. Over half of all personal bankruptcies are due to healthcare bills, the average cost of those bills is around $12,000. Funny thing is, 75% of those people, had Health Insurance when they got sick. Either it was canceled, part of it wasn't covered, or whatever
... But this guy makes $16,000 on the weekend.

Public vs Private Health Insurance Options

Critics of Obama's Healthcare plan are most upset about the "Public Option" they don't want to see a "government takeover" of the healthcare system, This is one of the main sticking points in the Senate Finance Committee, people like Chuck Grassley ask "Why do we need a public Option?"

I think the question really should be, why do we need a private option at all? We have publicly funded options like Medicare, and it's very successful.

Then why do we even need the insurance companies? What constructive role do they play? What benefit do they bring to the table? The whole point of the market is to increase efficiency and innovation and productivity, do Health Insurance Companies do any of these things?

I think they're parasites who make money by denying care. We've enabled this economy to exist, but all they do is waste our money.

I think the market and the entire economy would function better without Health Insurance companies and without the burden of worrying about how you're going to afford to protect your family from illness. All that worry and cost creates friction in our economic engine.

Think about it,
Guy works for large company, thinks he could do a better job than his boss, has a great idea, BUT if he leaves and tries to start a new business he loses healthcare for his family..... American companies are sacrificing quality to save money, they have to compete with Japanese companies that don't pay for healthcare, our companies aren't competitive overseas, and our balance of trade is awful which leads to a declining standard of living in the US..... Labor in the US is expensive, partly because of the cost of Healthcare, so companies move jobs out of the country..... Businesses pay more for healthcare every year, this eats up money that should go to expanding the business, buying equipment, marketing, moving the economy...... Individuals pay more every year too, that money should be going into home improvement, neighborhood businesses, vacations....... That's the story of the economy slowing down.

Here's the big question:
"Why are we wasting our money on an industry that brings us no value?"

Yea, Free Market at all costs... but if you look at it objectively, you start to realize that the economy would function better without the burden of healthcare.
.......


More on how Insurance Companies make money




think about it

Medicare for All
HR 676

jenks - 08/13/09 06:39
Oh don't get me wrong. I would love for everyone to have the same, fantastic, level of care. I just don't know how that's possible. And medicare (specifically medicaid) is sort of seen as the lowest common denominator. At least it's insurance, and the docs will be paid- but it's not great.

The sad truth is that, in some specialties (more elective type stuff) the most important piece of information in a person's medical history is: what insurance do they have. And certain doctors just won't accept certain plans. I have seen plenty of patients turned away because we don't accept their insurance. And patients with medicare/medicaid get shuffled to the "clinic"- where maybe they still get good care, but they do not get the VIP treatment that privately insured patients do.

So if we could come up with some amazing plan that is like some super premium HMO that everyone just gets for free, that doesn't bankrupt employers, and that still reimburses the doctors well- I'd say hell, go for it.

I just fear that SOMEone will get screwed with a big universal plan- whether it's patients getting lousy coverage/long waits/less choice, or doctors getting lousy pay/no autonomy...

But maybe there will be some universal minimum plan... like everyone gets some bare bones plan for free, and those who want more, can buy it? But I guess that's sort of what we have now...

The thing is, to be honest I know next to nothing about the whole situation, and am just speaking on my gut feelings (which isn't something I usually like to do, b/c I'm embarrassed at how little I know about the issue).
james - 08/12/09 23:53
Jenks, I ask because you work in health care (a term, in this debate, that insufficiently defined as it means both insurance and treatment), but what is so bad about a one size fits all approach? I mean, because I have diabetes I have certain needs, but I don't see why covering those needs for both me and someone who is perfectly healthy is such a bad thing. Giving me, someone like Stephen Hawking (poor chap, pulled into this debate in the strangest way) and Joe on the street the same coverage seems wonderful to me.

But you have more experience with this. What is your opinion?
jenks - 08/12/09 18:18
I for one would prefer blue cross to medicare.

Maybe private insurance companies should be not for profit- but I do not think a giant one-size-fits-all medicare type program is the best solution.

But, i'm not sure what is.
drew - 08/12/09 17:55
I want to be the guy that works for the insurance company that looks at the employess to see how much of a risk they are for cosmetic surgery.


Or maybe they would just farm it out to hotornot.com

dcoffee - 08/12/09 16:57
It's all good, it does show that people will still buy insurance even if there is Medicare for all, for things like cosmetic surgery, or other non-necessary stuff.

I'm just wondering if anyone can think of a reason to keep Private Insurance companies. Do they add any value to the system? can we afford them? How do they help the economy? Or is it we just don't trust government, so, it's not an option.

I did think of one reason to keep private insurance companies, it enables some people to become millionaires. I mean, it doesn't matter where the money comes from.
james - 08/12/09 16:54
WHAT! That is some crazy shit! Why on earth would they have that in the contract?

I mean, if it was free, sure. But why would an insurance company even offer that?

This world. It is made of crazy.
jenks - 08/12/09 16:11
ack, and dave, sorry for hijacking. again. :(
jenks - 08/12/09 16:11
from a quick google search- Granted it's 2004. But it seems to me there are better ways to spend that 1.5mil.

"Cosmetic surgery, it’s not a big issue with us,” said Phil Rumore, president of the Buffalo Teahers Federation. “It’s something that was part of our contract for years. It used, it didn’t cost anything for the districts to provide it. It was sort of like a throwaway.”
Today, that “throwaway” is costing taxpayers millions of dollars.
----In 2004, the city school district paid $1.5 million for 2,400 elective cosmetic surgery procedures, both for employees and their families.---
“It’s not an issue that we’re going to throw down our lives for. It was something that was part of the contract for years and years and years. It’s gotten to be a big issue cause it’s something to point to,” said Rumore."
jenks - 08/12/09 16:03
Yes, cosmetic rider. maybe it's not there any more (I would hope not) but it absolutely was a couple years ago.
jason - 08/12/09 16:02
I've got a note out to a number of teacher friends in the district. I'm asking them if the cosmetic rider is still there, or if it went away.
dcoffee - 08/12/09 16:00
I doubt any public plan would cover cosmetic riders. If you are rich and you want to pay for extra stuff there's one option.
jason - 08/12/09 15:55
Jaime Moses referencing the cosmetic rider.

:::link:::

I really wish I could just see the damned contract.
jason - 08/12/09 15:54
It's called a cosmetic rider.
jenks - 08/12/09 15:51
Ok, sorry, I don't know the details. And I guess I meant city employees, not state. (I just meant 'not private'). And it is the teachers/firefighters/police I am talking about- they have a special/different contract?
I obviously don't know everything about this.
But I know that I have A- performed cosmetic procedures on more than one teacher, and was informed that this would be 'free' to them (i.e. covered by their insurance), and B- there was a big article about it in the buffalo news a few years ago that got me all fired up.
Things very well may have changed since then.
jason - 08/12/09 15:49
I found that in '06, Donna Fernandes was the commencement speaker at the UB GSE, and she said then that elective cosmetic surgery was covered by the teacher's union contract. Eh, anecdotal. I do recall a big todo about it back then. I don't know if it has been re-negotiated since. It wouldn't shock me in the least to have it be in there.
james - 08/12/09 15:10
cops and teachers are not state employees and each union has a different contract. I have the same health coverage and compensation as the members of the state's white collar union and I can tell you that we do not have any such part in our contract. In fact, I have the same plan as most city works excluding teachers, firefighters, and police. I couldn't tell you what their contracts are like but I am willing to bet you are wrong about the cosmetic surgery.
jenks - 08/12/09 14:12
Yeah.
There are no words for how much that infuriates me.
When we are in a massive healthcare crisis, fucking insurance CEOs should not be making 3 million dollars. Say he made 1 million dollars, or even 2, (still a pretty cushy salary) and put the rest back into the system...

Another one that kills me- that buffalo state employees (cops, teachers, etc) have some crazy healthcare plan that includes a "cosmetic rider". I guess it came up years ago from independent health and blue cross (or whatever) competing for the huge contract...

Bottom line- when buffalo is in a major budget crisis, I would think that fucking breast implants and hair plugs for teachers and cops could be CUT before, say, school funding.

Argh.

08/11/2009 13:53 #49506

Healthcare and Business - Rush's Mob
Category: healthcare
I could go on and on about how our current Healthcare system hurts businesses, especially small businesses which make up 90% of the business community. I don't think it should be the Employer's responsability to provide healthcare for workers and their families. I think that it hurts businesses and makes them less competitive around the world. It's too expensive, workers and businesses would have more money to go around the economy if they didn't have to worry about healthcare.

I just wanted to share a personal tidbit. My mom works for a Catholic charity, OLV Father Bakers, the basilica... they have schools, homes for troubled teens, people with disabilities, seniors, etc, all good charity work. And they treat their employees well.

This year their healthcare costs went up 35%.

Just this year. And they go up every year. Her part of the charity has about 70 employees. She didn't get a raise this year because of the crazy healthcare increase. She said that is the biggest jump they've ever seen. I told her they need the money to lobby congress to crush Healthcare reform and protect their profits :) I know, it's not funny. 35% is a lot.


On another note, I decided to listen to Rush Limbaugh today.

I've been amazed by the lies floating around about the Healthcare Bills, I even got that email about "encouraging seniors to commit suicide" or "mandatory end of life counseling sessions", there's no such thing, by the way, I read the bill. I'm also astounded by the frightened protesters who've been attacking Democrats. They're scared of the government telling them who should live or die.. These fears seem irrational to me, this is America you know, it's a democracy, and 99% of Americans would never let such a thing happen.

Anyway I wanted to try and understand the rationale, so I tuned in to Rush Limbaugh. I found it fascinating. He paints a very frightening picture of America. He's afraid of authoritarianism, totalitarianism, the government controlling every aspect of your lives. He believes that our liberties and freedoms are being taken away. He doesn't blame the right wing protesters for being irate or un-civil, their liberties are about to be snatched away. The government will decide who lives and who dies.

He also says that his listeners are more informed than our congresspeople about what's in the bill. He says that our congresspeople haven't read the bill, they don't know what's in it. This may be partly true, but they do have a lot of staff to read the bill and it was drafted in a committee, most of the people in that committee know exactly what is in the bill. I was a bit disappointed that Democratic House members didn't take full advantage of the info-session provided to go over the bill and educate members about what exactly is in it.

But Rush, and the other conservative talkers I'm sure, believe that they have uncovered the awful secrets in this bill, and that their listeners have the inside scoop. They are telling their listeners that they are more informed than anyone else in America and it is their patriotic duty to alert the nation to the dangerous tyranny in this bill, and stop it by any means necessary. They're immersed in the conservative bubble of Fox news, Limbaugh, and the Drudge report, but they actually know what's in the bill, better than congress, and the people who wrote it?

There are so many lies and exaggeration coming from the right about this healthcare bill, I've seen some of this stuff, emails, scarry 'summary' of the bill etc. I've double checked the bill itself, and they're not mandating anything, you're just getting more options and more coverage, and more security from the abuses of insurers.

I think it's fascinating, bad for democracy, but really interesting anyway.

heidi - 08/12/09 17:04
(e:dcoffee) - I wish i could take credit for those words, but they're a quote from the article that's linked. :-)
jason - 08/11/09 23:12
(e:Heidi) - Thanks for the links. I'm not one of these people that are above reading what other people think. Even when it's tough it's okay. =)

I read the article you quoted, and it was an interesting read. I do have a problem with the particular section you quoted. Nobody takes any particular pleasure in the inequality within American health care. It is a non sequitur argument, like saying Progressives who want to take away a chunk of the miltary budget do so because they want another 9/11. Again, the rhetoric has gotten too heated. I admit that I've gotten mad on occasion. If I do, remind me to stop.
jason - 08/11/09 23:04
(e:James) - I agree the GOP isn't offering an alternative at this point. The time for it was two months ago or so. The GOP, and Boehner in particular, outlined what they wanted, but they have never been in a position to dictate policy. They haven't, and won't, be heard. I'm not saying that it's wrong, elections matter. All they can do is snipe at what the Democrats lay out.

I'm going to agree that the radio mullahs and a number of the GOP politicians have gone off the deep end. They might have a nugget of a good point in there somewhere but it will be lost in the filth. Again, they aren't in a position to offer anything else, and this is the cornered position they're in.

As far as the town halls are concerned, I'm not going to question the motive of every blue hair at the meeting. Whether or not organized groups show up, and I'm sure they do, every day Americans are getting demonized. I really don't think it was smart for Democrats to do that.

In the end, I think the fault is laid at the feet of the Democratic leadership when they wanted to rush it through - I mean when Congressmen are on video questioning the merits of reading the bill...Jesus. We need to just get it right. Obama and the rank and file are paying an unnecessary price. They haven't delivered on what O asked for.

Thanks for the link, BTW.
dcoffee - 08/11/09 21:07
Jenks, I'll confess I don't know how these things usually go, and I don't know much about the hospital you work in. I's post the whole section here but it's about 2 pages, it's called "advance care planning consultation" section 1233. Sweet, I can link straight to that section :::link:::

Heidi I've gotta quote you again "if a captain of industry can't buy better health care than the guy who cuts his lawn can, then the world just isn't functioning as it should."
this totally cracks me up. This bill won't screw up that hierarchy, and the Canadian system doesn't either. But that is very insightful and hilarious at the same time.

I'm going to have to post some real details about how our Healthcare system hurts businesses, the entire economy and the country. I think it's obvious but maybe I'm a schmuck.
jenks - 08/11/09 18:21
just a quickie-

"This provision actually just ammends medicare and says that the government will now reimburse you for the cost of a Living Will consultation with your doctor. You or your doctor choose weather you want to do it or not, all the big bad government does is pay the cost."

WTF is a living will consultation?!

I have talked to families about living wills (and health care proxies) plenty of times. Basically I say "here's the form" and they read it and fill it out, and that's about it. I certainly don't get paid for it, and I'm fairly certain the hospital doesn't charge, either.

Why are we suddenly assigning a cost to that? That the gov't has to pay? WTF?

Rather than make it part of medicare that the gov't pays for, why not make lawyers do it for free, or something like that?

Ack.
dcoffee - 08/11/09 18:08
To me, it seems like conservatives are misinterpreting the bill on purpose. Or maybe they are just very paranoid about Obama and the Democratic party, they have pre-conceived notions and are inclined to jump to conclusions instead of trying to understand exactly what the bill is saying. Sure the bill isn't easy to read, maybe I have an advantage because I studied Political Science. But a lot of these outrageous claims are false, and when they're told that, "That's not in the bill, and I would never support such a thing" they just don't believe you. to Illustrate my point, here's Newt Gingrich on ABC's This Week :::link::: I admire Gingrich here, he bullshits through this like a great politician, but he's still just trying to scare you.

But you don't have to look at Left Wing blogs to try and get the story straight, I found answers on About.com and FactCheck.org, and other non-partisain places. Or you can just look at the Buffalo News, there was an article on Sunday :::link::: make sure to click the Related Content link too. People on Liberal blogs take different angles all the time and you may not find what you're looking for, they assume the audience is on their level so they don't rehash every point of misinformation. Just search for "Health care reform euthanasia" and you'll find some answers.

Anyway, here are some of the big lies.

The Government will pull the plug on Grandma to save money. Or, the bill sets up "mandatory" end of life counseling sessions where you decide how you want to die. First of all, there's nothing Manditory about this bill, It gives you more choices, not less. This provision actually just ammends medicare and says that the government will now reimburse you for the cost of a Living Will consultation with your doctor. You or your doctor choose weather you want to do it or not, all the big bad government does is pay the cost. This part of the bill was actually introduced by Johnny Isakson, a republican pro-life guy. But it's a democratic conspiricy to kill you?

Illegal Aliens will get benefits. not true, check section 246, and I quote "No Federal payment for undocumented aliens".

There's a new one, this is a good example. The Government will come to your house and tell you how to raise your kids. Chuck Norris wrote something about this today, it was picked up by Limbaugh, and I'm sure it's made it's way around the conservative echo chamber by now. The article's called "Dirty Secret No. 1 in Obamacare." Here's the actual text of the section "..improve the well-being, health, and development of children by enabling the establishment and expansion of high quality programs providing voluntary home visitation for families with young children and families expecting children." uummmm it's Fucking Voluntary!!

I think that is a good example, because it's one guy, selectively reading the text of the bill, sourcing the sections and quoting them for credibility, and then making it sound like Stalin has landed in America. But when you read the text, it's totally benign whoopty-do stuff.

That's how most of these things get started. All the conservatives believe eachother, and they repeat whatever they hear on the Radio or the TV or the Internet, without checking it, without asking questions and without thinking to themselves, nah, this is America, let me look that one up. Like the Euthenizing Seniors thing, started on Fred Thompson's Radio Show with some guest. I have that link cause I got the email :::link:::

But honestly it's such a stretch to get these sinister interpretations of the bill that I can't help but believe that it's deliberate. I don't know why they would want to make up lies, to kill healthcare reform and keep things the way they are. But it seems intentional, at least for those who originate the lies. Not for the poor saps who believe Fox News and Limbaugh, I don't think they mean any harm, but they've been whipped into a fearful frenzy by the Conservative echo chamber.

This might be a good way to read the actual text of the bill :::link:::

AH HA! I found it. This is the bill that conservatives are reading, it's on a lot of different blogs, it's the shortened bullet point version of HR 3200 that is total bullshit. It just has sources and section numbers, so people think it's true, and they'll believe some dude with a blog over any Democrat. :::link:::

Ooh, I found something directly responding to a bunch of claims in that Lie-Sheet :::link:::

For Debunking this guy may be a good source, I stumbeled into a few of his pieces. :::link:::

heidi - 08/11/09 17:00
10 dumbest arguments against health care reform (The American Prospect) :::link:::

Whatever we do, we shouldn't ruin "the best health-care system in the world." Progressives confronted with this common argument often respond with incredulity. "Are you kidding me?" they shout. Fifty million uninsured, the highest per-capita costs in the world, millions of people pushed into bankruptcy by medical bills, worse health outcomes than most of the industrialized world? Are you kidding me?

But this is not a practical argument -- it's a moral argument. Those who make it believe that our system is the best precisely because of its inequality. Systems like those of our European friends, in which everyone has access to high-quality care at a reasonable price, just don't sit right with many conservative Republicans. If a captain of industry can't buy better health care than the guy who cuts his lawn can, then the world just isn't functioning as it should.
heidi - 08/11/09 16:54
I think Joe Conason is in the same vapid writing field as huffpo, but this does provide a nice little bit of background on Betsy McCaughey :::link:::

Here's more on the issues & debates from Salon.com, which overall isn't vapid.

:::link:::

Alternet.org has some decent journalism, although the quality can vary :::link:::


About "rationing" and denial of care.
:::link:::
james - 08/11/09 16:16
Well, if you want vapid commentary HuffPo or MoveOn is great.

But, essentially, I said the conservatives talking points have not actually talked about the bill. For example, you cited the mandated end of life counceling. Here is a nice bit on that with sufficient quotations :::link:::

So, they are reading the bill. But they aren't looking to improve it in anyway. They are looking for talking points to feed the lunatic fringe of the conservative base.

So the Dems actually go to town hall meetings to build consensus among their constituents and who should be there but astroturfing tea baggers. That is not a genuine debate or a conversation. It is the primal scream of people who are fundamentally incapable of working on this issue.

During the stimulus package debate the GOP made an alternative bill. I would like to see them do that now. Again, the leadership of the GOP is not about policy, but bullshit talking points. I fail to see any core conservative values in their opposition. I only see opposition. It is the same perpetual-campaign bullshit of Rove. The same stuff that has made that incarnation of the GOP useless and irrelevant.

I look forward to genuine debate.
jason - 08/11/09 16:02
I couldn't find your comment in the graveyard, either. =/

I'm being honest about wanting more information. I don't know where the wonky lefties hang out.
james - 08/11/09 15:58
I just wrote a long ass response and it did not appear. Oh man, that makes me so angry.

But the short of it is: I respectfully must inform you that you are incorrect. Will repost later.
jason - 08/11/09 14:55
One clarification - the bit about small states having too much power wasn't in HuffPo, it was in WaPo.
jason - 08/11/09 14:52
No. I said as far as I know. I'm looking for liberal interpretations of the bill. When Conservatives point to specific things, and say for example the Mandate for end of life counseling is somewhere in Page 425-430, I want a response from a left winger addressing the point. Instead I'm getting ironic objections and conspiracy theories about protests, and an article today on HuffPo re-hashing the same poppycock about how small states have too much power. Federalism sucks! Seriously though, point me to a liberal resource where the bill is scrutinized and I'll look at it. I am trying to seek out this information.
james - 08/11/09 14:38
These conservatives are the only ones looking at the bill?

That is rich.
jason - 08/11/09 14:37
As far as I know, these Conservatives are the only ones scrutinizing the bill, or asking questions about what's in it. I wonder how many of these Congresscritters are reading poll tested talking points instead of talking about what's in the bill. Most proponents don't give a damn what's in it, as long as their Obamacare card paid for by their neighbor arrives in the mail. I'm glad you've actually given the bill a look.