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06/16/2009 21:25 #48992

the Bible, gays, Jesus and the pope
Category: religion
I've always wondered why people use religion and the Bible as a basis for condemning homosexuality. I'm a spiritual person, a Quaker by choice, and I'm not OK with hatred in general, especially hatred based on religion.

I've read some of the bible, but I don't know enough about what it says yet.

anyway, straight to the point here. I read an article recently in Friends Journal that sheds some light on the biblical/theological basis for discrimination against homosexuality. and as it turns out, there is none.

Here's a link to the full article, unfortunately it's not on the Friends Journal site, and I haven't reread this whole page to know if it's exactly the same as what I read, but, here's the link

To summarize:

There's the New Testament and the Old Testament (Torah) in the Christian bible. The New Testiment is based on the life of Jesus and his teachings, it's the more Christian part, we're supposedly following Jesus Christ, hence the term 'Christ'ian. according to the article, homosexuality is only mentioned 3 times in the New Testiment, all of them by the same author, the apostle Paul.

I think I'd better quote the article here:

These homophobic remarks can be found in Paul's letters to the Romans (1:26-27), to Timothy (1:9-10), and to the Corinthians (6:9-10). That's it. I have found no other support for the Pope's homophobic position in the entire "new testament" other than these three short anti-gay comments made by a single Christian leader about 20 or 30 years after Jesus' death. It should also be noted that Paul's comments were made in angry response to some early Christian communities that did not support his homophobic views and, by his own report, actually included gays and lesbians as full and respected participants in their congregations.

The core theological question here, then, is what authority in our lives and religious communities are we to give to these three particular statements attributed to Paul? Are these three statements products of a historically-conditioned, culture-bound, patriarchal worldview not fully left behind by Paul or are they a deep revelation of the wisdom and way of God, the loving and liberating Spirit so fully embodied in human terms by Jesus of Nazareth? These three remarks by Paul were certainly never sanctioned by any recorded comment by Jesus, so this seems like a fair question. Even Paul says, "Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good, abstain from every form of evil."

And as much as I am deeply moved by so much of what is written in Paul's letters, and as much as I appreciate his efforts to organize and spread the radical Jesus movement in his day, I do see some of his remarks as violations of the best in Jewish and Christian wisdom and practice. For example, Paul also argues that women should not speak in church, that followers of Jesus should always obey governmental orders, that there is nothing wrong with slavery, that slaves should always obey their masters. He even once said that it was sinful for women to wear their hair in braids or to not cover their heads in church...

Furthermore, it must be remembered that Paul was not a close disciple of Jesus. He did not join the Jesus movement until after Jesus was crucified. He had never known Jesus intimately, or traveled with Jesus day in and day out, or discussed his own perspectives and confusions with Jesus at any length.



Kinda makes you go hmmmm

as for the old testiment, there are 5 refferances..

In total there are five additional passages that I have found in the entire Hebrew scriptures that might be legitimately considered anti-gay, or view gay and lesbian behavior as a sin, perhaps even a major sin. These passages are Genesis 19, Leviticus 19:22, Leviticus 20:13, Deuteronomy 23:17, and Judges 19-21. I say "might" here, however, because three of these passages are not even evaluating the moral worth of loving, committed gay and lesbian relationships at all, but actually speak out instead against male-on-male rape, or against men consorting with male or female ritual prostitutes, a practice that was common among some non-Jewish cultural traditions of the time.

The only significant theological support in the entire bible for the Pope's homophobia is found in Leviticus, which clearly says in one passage that gay male sexual behavior is a sin and an abomination before God and then goes on to another passage that says it is a moral imperative on the part of the faithful to kill all men who engage in homosexual behavior.



Regarding the 613 'laws' in the Torah...

Whether or not you agree with the murderous homophobia of these two laws attributed to God through Moses, one might be tempted to say that they do at least offer a firm theological support for the current Pope's homophobia. That would be true, however, only if the Pope actually supported all 613 of the religious laws listed in the Torah as legitimate commandments from God and as perpetual statutes to be followed by all generations of Jews and Christians. The Pope doesn't believe this, though--and neither did the Jewish prophet Micah, or Paul, or Jesus. If the Pope did believe everything that is said in all of the 613 laws attributed to the prophet Moses, he would order animal sacrifice as a core religious practice within the Catholic Mass and he would oppose Catholics eating shellfish or wearing cloth made from two types of fabrics. He would also demand that all Catholic men get circumcised. Indeed, he would demand that all faithful Catholics kill every child they know who has ever talked back to their parents, and demand that they also kill every woman who is guilty of adultery.

All of these actions and prohibitions are included among the 613 laws of Moses. Is it any wonder why Paul called the slavish following of all these religious laws "a curse" and warned people to stay faithful to the underlying spirit of the Law, but not the detailed letter of each one--as many of them are based on mere cultural convention and some are even rooted in deep human prejudices and cruelty.



Fascinating stuff right? I thought so. I'm interested to learn more about Jesus. Found a couple articles within Friends Journal that give context to his life like this one, I plan to read some gospels. Like Mark, and the newly discovered ones are very interesting to me. There were 12 disciples, but only 4 had their gospels included in Constantine's official bible, which is the basis of our current Bible.

Quakers are a Christian religion, and a diverse one, but I think we're more intent on following the path of Jesus, living up to his revolutionary ideals. Following and emulating the spirit of Jesus' life. Striving to create a 'beloved community' on Earth. Not worshiping, or idolizing him or the Church. And certainly not blindly following any Church's 'laws' without context.

This article was written in response to the pope's comments on homosexuality.. "saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behavior was as important as protecting the environment."

Full Article Again

just wanted to put that out there.
drew - 06/17/09 21:49
Just to play the other side for a second (even though these arguments no longer convince me).

The Bible never mentions homosexuality in a positive light. Pauls writings are earlier than the Gospels, and teach more directly to the subject.

Also, the Old Testament is no less authoritative than the new (according to many) when it comes to moral laws. Purity laws and civil laws of Israel are no longer, in effect, they argue, but moral laws still are (and yes, they argue that this is a moral law, somewhat arbitrarily).

One more point worth mentioning. Homophobia existed before both Christianity and Judaism, and many other religions. We bear a lot of responsibility for the wrongs we have done, but homophobia would still be there even if all of us came around.
dcoffee - 06/17/09 19:15
The article does quote different passages from the bible that refer to homosexuality being bad, sinful, whatever. And if you take those quotes out of context, put them on their own, there's about 5 passages that really target homosexuality, and you might claim those as justification. But if you put them in context, like with the other 613 'laws' in Leviticus and the Old Testament, some of those 'laws' are absurd, you start to wonder if these are god's commands, or if this stuff needs to be explored. Same thing with the New Testament, all the Quotes are from Paul, not Jesus, I think that's key (sorry to both Pauls) but if someone is a Christian, I think the words of Jesus are the most important, and if he never talks about it, I think it's open to interpenetration for all Christians.
metalpeter - 06/17/09 19:12
So Pretty Rusty on the bible and the few parts I know, but isn't there some part that says something like "one man shall not lay with another Man".

I have my own theory or crazy idea about the 10 commandments. Now when people follow them they need to remember that they aren't the first 10. Didn't the tablet break and god had to resend them? Is my memory correct. So isn't it possible that, that is a why of telling people that over time things change.

I think the anti anal sex that (e:james) is talking about is a good point. If you think about it that was common (from what I have heard) in Greece I have even heard it called "Greek Style" I think that back then people where trying to distance them selves from the Greeks. The sex was part of it. But look at You shall not worship other gods. Well there where many gods for greeks.

The thing you have to remember is that The bible is used as the tool to teach or tell people stuff. But you can tell people stuff that isn't in the book. You can tell one story (with out editing it) and get different meanings from it. So maybe it isn't the bible that teaches homophobia maybe it is the people. Or it could be the fact that sex outside of marriage is a sin, so any sex that is gay has to be sin since you can't be married. I think it is also important to note that everyone uses the term Homophobia wrong. It means being affraid of gays, but most people use it to mean hating them, there is a differance.
ajay - 06/17/09 15:29
Interesting. So, Pastor (e:drew) , since you're our local expert on the Bible and things theological, can you point us to the basis for homophobia? Just put on a fundamentalist hat for moment, and, like a prosecutor, lay out the exhaustive case, with quotes and references.
I'd like to understand where all of this comes from.

Thanks!
james - 06/17/09 12:53
This issue is a bizarre one.

First, there were no homosexuals in Jesus' lifetime. Oh sure, there was a lot of man on man and girl on girl hot sex, no doubt. But no one was there who declared "I am a homosexual" just as there was no one to declare "I am a heterosexual". Sexual identity is a very recent invention, less than 200 years old.

Second, the Catholic Church's doctrine did not develop out of scripture, but rather Augustine and Aquinas' reading of Aristotle. In the early church homosexual acts was punished just as masturbation would be punished as the crime was the same: spilling semen rather than impregnating a woman.

Treatment of these people became different from treatment of other sexual sinners who the Church had its first dirty priest scandal. Namely, monks were not living a quiet life of prayer, work, and contemplation but were fucking like rabbits (rabbits, not rabbis). Manuals that would serve as prototypes for interrogation methods in the inquisition began appearing in the 13th century. They would have a series of questions to ask, a series of responses, and a series of penances.

What really sparked our modern anti-sex, anti-masturbation, anti-woman, anti-queer crusade was the rise of the middle class and the industrial revolution. Fake Social Science was applied and thousands of men were castrated, thousands of women had their clitoris hacked off, thousands of people received lobotomies. All to curb their very natural, very harmless desires. Of course, the bible was often retrofitted into this crusade.

In short, the bible is not anti-homosexual. Rather, it is anti-sodomy. It is 3,000 years of culture that is anti-homosexual. And while the bible will always be around, that culture is slowly fading away.
drew - 06/16/09 23:39
You will enjoy reading the Gospels. Mark is a great place to start as it is almost universally recognized as the earliest. You will probably like Luke, too--as it has all of Mark, plus the sermon on the mount, parables, and a special emphasis on women and the poor.

A great book to put Jesus "in context" is "the Secret Message of Jesus" by Brian McLaren (I can lend it, if you would like).

As you probably already guessed, I really like talking about Jesus, so I will be happy to answer any questions you have or help in any way I can.

And one more quick note--the quotes are accurate, and I agree with them, but what you said, about there being no biblical basis for discrimination, is overstating it. I don't think there is a solid one, but I do think we have to grant that people can read the Bible and honestly come to different conclusions. A lot depends on how you read the Bible.

06/15/2009 11:52 #48981

US Chamber opposes Healthcare
Category: healthcare
Call Congress 1-800-828-0498

Most of you know that I run my own Web-Design and Photography business, I'm a sole proprietor. This means that I get screwed on Healthcare. I have to pay something like a minimum $500 per month for some crappy high deductible insurance for my wife and myself. that's even the subsidized NYS version.

I'm part of my local Greater South Buffalo Chamber of Commerce, and somehow I ended up receiving 'urgent action' alerts from the US Chamber of Commerce. They sent me one on Saturday... to Debra, I just noticed, boy that was a happy accident for me. Anyway, here's their message

"This week, the Senate HELP Committee released a plan that will radically restructure health care for all Americans. The proposal goes above and beyond covering the uninsured. It threatens the private market and ailing economy.

Unable to compete with a public plan, many private companies would be locked into an unsustainable system and forced out of business. In fact, a report cites 130 million people potentially moving from private insurance to this new public plan.

Now is the time to stand up to Senator Kennedy's plan, which could devastate private health care, and ultimately force you into an entirely government-run plan. Click here to send a letter to Congress now.

Further, this proposal would restrict the way employers provide coverage, hurting flexibility and innovation: the cornerstones of American health care. For more of my thoughts on the danger of this proposal, click here.

The bottom line: Sen. Kennedy's bill is dangerous to your health.

This plan is being forced through at a lightning pace, preventing those who will be impacted from carefully considering the 615-page proposal."



That email takes you to this page

So instead of signing their petition I decided to use their contact form to express my opposition. Here's my message to them.

"I support a public Healthcare option. Why should business have to pay the cost of health insurance for our employees? Why should employees have to demand extra benefits from their employers just to ensure that their families are protected from tragedy? The current Healthcare system is broken. It forces businesses like mine to cut employees, and increase our prices to cover the extra costs. This should not be the burden of private business. The economy would be better off with a simplified system where government takes responsibility for the well being of all citizens.

I oppose your position on this issue. I do not support protecting the Health Insurance companies at the expense of all other businesses and the economy as a whole. This is not a responsible position for the US Chamber of Commerce to take."



If you want to call congress on this issue here's the
Toll Free Number
1 800-828-0498


Senators are:
Kristen Gillibrand
Chuck Schumer

House Representatives are:
Brian Higgins
Louise Slaughter
Chris Lee

heidi - 06/15/09 22:23
(e:ajay), you're right that many people who would be entrepreneurs are too scared to drop their only affordable, reasonable health insurance option. My clients, small business owners, can't afford health insurance for themselves or their employees at $500/mo/person and $1200/mo/family. Why should bad health insurance (what you get at $500/mo is really crappy) cost more than your mortgage?

It pisses me off to no end that the US Chamber of Commerce opposes any universal option. National Federation of Independent Businesses also opposes a true public option. :::link:::(FINAL).pdf (PDF of their "principles". :::link::: PDF of small biz & healthcare stats) It makes no sense to me why they can say it's a major challenge - and in my experience it is a HUGE challenge - but be unwilling to address it with cost-effective public solutions. Thanks for posting, (e:dcoffee).
ajay - 06/15/09 20:37
Big business doesn't want a public healthcare system. Health insurance is one of the major reasons that many employees stick to dead-end jobs, instead of branching out on their own.

06/01/2009 21:50 #48818

Photos from Saturday's party
Category: life
Party Photos!

It was a good time. Hope everyone had fun. I didn't take enough pictures. Enjoy these :)


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Morning after

Fun times. we had a good crowd. Thanks everyone for coming.


jason - 06/02/09 13:04
I think I can speak for both Josh and I when I say that it was a really cool party, and that we enjoyed finally being able to BS and hang out. Nice house, nice people, and a great time. Next time we'll hang out and talk more.

Also it was good to see the other e-peeps at the party. I always very much enjoy chilling with you all.
matthew - 06/02/09 09:59
Thank you for the party. We had a great time. You have a wonderful house. Enjoy!
james - 06/01/09 23:05
Thanks for having us. I had a great time.

05/25/2009 20:42 #48754

Come see the new house!
Category: house
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Sorry for the short notice everybody, but we'd like to invite you all to our house this Saturday May 30!!! We're having a big summer party at our new digs.

Come see what we got for $46,000!!

Starts around 2-3, and goes till late. Come for a few hours or hang out all night. 178 Altruria St. South Buffalo, off South Park near Tifft.

We're inviting family and friends. Hang out for a backyard picnic, and stay till whenever. We'll have some food and drinks for everyone, but you can always bring something to contribute. Tour the house, check out the vegetable garden, we'll have a fire outside later on... come hang out.

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tinypliny - 05/26/09 18:36
:( Can't make it.

Enjoy the party! :)
libertad - 05/26/09 09:04
Mike has my weekend wrapped up into his two day garage sale but we would like to come by.
janelle - 05/25/09 22:03
We will be there! Can't wait to see it.
james - 05/25/09 21:53
I have a brunch meeting on Culver. Maybe I will stop by after.

04/28/2009 21:19 #48531

First Weekend of Summer
Category: life
I love living in South Buffalo. We had a great weekend, actually a great week.

Wednesday and Thursday we hung out at our neighbor's house next door, had some food and drinks. We've met a lot of our neighbors already, it seems like summer is going to be full of activity. It was nice to spend some time, and get to know the 2 families in the house next door.

Friday 2 friends came over after work. We hung out in the yard, enjoying the excellent weather. We assembled our fire ring, but we got hungry and didn't end up lighting our first fire. But it was the first time we've actually hung out in the backyard with friends. We had a little dinner party, with some pasta and homemade sauce. I do make good pasta sauce, instant gourmet :)

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Saturday, Mr Softie in the hood. Parked right outside my house. There are a ton of kids in this neighborhood.

Saturday

We went for bikeride. We had no perticular direction. First we dropped by a friends house to see their newborn baby, passed a hotdog stand on South Park Ave so we stopped for a bite to eat. Passed a street musician after we left, playing guitar at the bus stop by the library. Then mom's house, we found her outside gardening, of course :) Finally we rode around Cazenovia Park, and then around South Park Lake too. We saw a saxophone player outside the Botanical Gardens too. Such a nice day for a ride, it's like the whole neighborhood was in bloom.

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I love Hot Dog stands, woodside and South Park :)

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Outside Mom's

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Dudes Fishin' at Caz Park

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Baseball Game

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Cazenovia Creek


South Park Lake
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Outside the Botanical Gardens

Later we showed off our new house to one of mom's out of town friends. Then we all went out to dinner at the Blackthorn. Mom's friend in a Buffalo native who is actually moving back to B-lo from North Carolina because she misses the people, cheap living, and the friendliness.

At around 8 we went to a friend's birthday party in East Aurora. we stayed outside on the back deck and the porch, except to refill our wine glasses, and use the piano, she has a player piano, one that plays those song scrolls. Fun stuff.

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Rockin' the Player Piano, that cabinet in the back is full of scrolls.

Sunday

I worked outside, starting my vegetable garden in the back yard. We had dinner at mom's house, backyard barbeque! Enjoyed my first corn on the cob of 2009, along with sausage, veggie-burgers and pasta salad. Cooking on the grill, lovin' the outdoors.

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Molly says hi :) Actually she wrote some of this post!





jenks - 04/30/09 09:12
ooh, lib that's a ride i've been wanting to make for a while, but the time I tried I got totally lost down behind the buffalo news... can you tell me (exactly) how you got there from downtown? that would be awesome.
libertad - 04/29/09 14:02
I rode my bike to the botanical gardens on Monday and rode through Cazenovia park. When I get a chance I want to make a post of my trip because it was so much fun and I saw so much stuff I had never seen before. I didn't even know the park existed prior to monday.
lauren - 04/29/09 10:12
Sounds like an awesome way to start out the summer! I took one of "my" kids who lives in Lackawanna for a walk around the Botanical Gardens Park (South Park?) on Monday and it was soooo nice. My dog enjoyed it too :)
hodown - 04/28/09 21:49
That makes me miss Buffalo :(