Drew's Journal
My Podcast Link
03/12/2008 11:22 #43634
Prayer battle!!Category: religion
James told me that if I prayed for him, to my God, he would pray to his gods and rats and Wiccans might show up in my house.
I'm not going to start, so I think we will have peace. But it did remind me of a dramatic prayer showdown from scripture.
For your reading pleasure:
Kings 18:21-40
21 Elijah challenged the people: "How long are you going to sit on the fence? If God is the real God, follow him; if it's Baal, follow him. Make up your minds!" Nobody said a word; nobody made a move. 22 Then Elijah said, "I'm the only prophet of God left in Israel; and there are four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal. 23 Let the Baal prophets bring up two oxen; let them pick one, butcher it, and lay it out on an altar on firewood - but don't ignite it. I'll take the other ox, cut it up, and lay it on the wood. But neither will I light the fire. 2
4 Then you pray to your gods and I'll pray to God. The god who answers with fire will prove to be, in fact, God." All the people agreed: "A good plan - do it!"
25 Elijah told the Baal prophets, "Choose your ox and prepare it. You go first, you're the majority. Then pray to your god, but don't light the fire." 26 So they took the ox he had given them, prepared it for the altar, then prayed to Baal. They prayed all morning long, "O Baal, answer us!" But nothing happened - not so much as a whisper of breeze. Desperate, they jumped and stomped on the altar they had made. 27 By noon, Elijah had started making fun of them, taunting, "Call a little louder - he is a god, after all. Maybe he's off meditating somewhere or other, or maybe he's gotten involved in a project, or maybe he's on vacation. You don't suppose he's overslept, do you, and needs to be waked up?"
28 They prayed louder and louder, cutting themselves with swords and knives - a ritual common to them - until they were covered with blood. 29 This went on until well past noon. They used every religious trick and strategy they knew to make something happen on the altar, but nothing happened - not so much as a whisper, not a flicker of response.
30 Then Elijah told the people, "Enough of that - it's my turn. Gather around." And they gathered. He then put the altar back together for by now it was in ruins. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes of Jacob, the same Jacob to whom God had said, "From now on your name is Israel." 32 He built the stones into the altar in honor of God. Then Elijah dug a fairly wide trench around the altar. 33 He laid firewood on the altar, cut up the ox, put it on the wood, and said, "Fill four buckets with water and drench both the ox and the firewood." 34 Then he said, "Do it again," and they did it. Then he said, "Do it a third time," 35 and they did it a third time.
The altar was drenched and the trench was filled with water. 36 When it was time for the sacrifice to be offered, Elijah the prophet came up and prayed, "O God, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, make it known right now that you are God in Israel, that I am your servant, and that I'm doing what I'm doing under your orders. 37 Answer me, God; O answer me and reveal to this people that you are God, the true God, and that you are giving these people another chance at repentance."
38 Immediately the fire of God fell and burned up the offering, the wood, the stones, the dirt, and even the water in the trench. 39 All the people saw it happen and fell on their faces in awed worship, exclaiming, "God is the true God! God is the true God!"
40 Elijah told them, "Grab the Baal prophets! Don't let one get away!" They grabbed them. Elijah had them taken down to the Brook Kishon and they massacred the lot.
03/12/2008 00:15 #43630
Thanks . . .Category: religion
to all you question answerers, be they by post, comment, or email. (See previous post)
I guess the one thing that I did learn is that some people don't want to be prayed for. Part of me want to do spiritual vandalism and do so anyway, but I think that's just me being a jerk. (for the record, I haven't done it for those that didn't want it, and I have for those that have).
The other thing is that the church does a lousy job of being what it is supposed to be about. There are so many things that people think of when they here "church," that have so little to do with the message of Jesus.
Also, there have been so many bad inviting experiences. I want the Lafayette people to invite, but I also want to make sure we have our stuff together, so that we don't contribute to more bad experiences.
(It reminds me of a conversation I had with an improv guy that knew he was giving bad shows, but didn't think it would effect his future audience when the group got better? But how many people go back to the restaurant that made them sick?)
Anyway, thanks again--I do appreciate all of you sharing.
I guess the one thing that I did learn is that some people don't want to be prayed for. Part of me want to do spiritual vandalism and do so anyway, but I think that's just me being a jerk. (for the record, I haven't done it for those that didn't want it, and I have for those that have).
The other thing is that the church does a lousy job of being what it is supposed to be about. There are so many things that people think of when they here "church," that have so little to do with the message of Jesus.
Also, there have been so many bad inviting experiences. I want the Lafayette people to invite, but I also want to make sure we have our stuff together, so that we don't contribute to more bad experiences.
(It reminds me of a conversation I had with an improv guy that knew he was giving bad shows, but didn't think it would effect his future audience when the group got better? But how many people go back to the restaurant that made them sick?)
Anyway, thanks again--I do appreciate all of you sharing.
jenks - 03/12/08 18:51
i certainly don't MIND if you pray for me- but I wouldn't ASK you to is all.
i certainly don't MIND if you pray for me- but I wouldn't ASK you to is all.
james - 03/12/08 09:28
Oh hell! If you pray for me Drew I am going to pray for you and you do not want to be messing with those gods Drew. Though please note, if your home is suddenly infested with rats or wiccans it is a complete coincidence.
"The other thing is that the church does a lousy job of being what it is supposed to be about. There are so many things that people think of when they here "church," that have so little to do with the message of Jesus."
true that. But I suppose 2000 years of precedence is tough to not follow.
Oh hell! If you pray for me Drew I am going to pray for you and you do not want to be messing with those gods Drew. Though please note, if your home is suddenly infested with rats or wiccans it is a complete coincidence.
"The other thing is that the church does a lousy job of being what it is supposed to be about. There are so many things that people think of when they here "church," that have so little to do with the message of Jesus."
true that. But I suppose 2000 years of precedence is tough to not follow.
03/10/2008 11:22 #43601
HoopsAnybody around Elmwood that likes to play basketball, can come by my Church (Lafayette Ave Presbyterian--see the link on the right) on Tuesday nights starting at 8pm. We aren't particularly good, so don't let that intimidate you.
The gym isn't all that well heated, so you may want to wear your warm-ups.
The gym isn't all that well heated, so you may want to wear your warm-ups.
03/10/2008 22:01 #43608
Questions: my homeworkCategory: religion
Janelle and I are taking/leading a class about talking to people that don't have faith about faith, and one of the things that the book tells us is that we don't get it. People that go to church, according to the book, don't understand what people that don't go to church think. So the book asked us to interview somebody that doesn't go, so that we could understand somebody else's perspective.
If anybody wants to answer these questions in person, coffee/beer is on me. If anybody wants to answer them on estrip, comment below.
The questions:
1. What pops into your mind when you hear the word "church?"
2. Has anyone ever invited you to their church? What did you think when they asked you? Did you go? How did it feel? If you didn't go, why not?
3. Have you ever had a sense of God or Jesus communicating with you? What was it like?
4. If you had one question you could ask God and knew you would get an answer, what would it be?
5. Would you like prayer for anything?
Thanks in advance! If anybody wants to answer these in person, the best time for me is Wednesday night, after 8 (homework is due Thursday)
If you don't want people reading your responses, sending me an email is fine, too.
If anybody wants to answer these questions in person, coffee/beer is on me. If anybody wants to answer them on estrip, comment below.
The questions:
1. What pops into your mind when you hear the word "church?"
2. Has anyone ever invited you to their church? What did you think when they asked you? Did you go? How did it feel? If you didn't go, why not?
3. Have you ever had a sense of God or Jesus communicating with you? What was it like?
4. If you had one question you could ask God and knew you would get an answer, what would it be?
5. Would you like prayer for anything?
Thanks in advance! If anybody wants to answer these in person, the best time for me is Wednesday night, after 8 (homework is due Thursday)
If you don't want people reading your responses, sending me an email is fine, too.
jenks - 03/12/08 18:50
1- overbearing
2- after a sleepover in 2nd grade I went to catholic mass with my friend b/c I didn't know any better. My mother sheepishly told me later that I should not have taken communion since I didn't know what it was. Was invited to go to church with a mormon friend, but didn't.
3- not at all
4- sadly, this is sort of so far beyond my comprehension that I can't even think of something to ask aside from the stupid questions like "why isn't everyone nice?"
5- not really, but thanks.
1- overbearing
2- after a sleepover in 2nd grade I went to catholic mass with my friend b/c I didn't know any better. My mother sheepishly told me later that I should not have taken communion since I didn't know what it was. Was invited to go to church with a mormon friend, but didn't.
3- not at all
4- sadly, this is sort of so far beyond my comprehension that I can't even think of something to ask aside from the stupid questions like "why isn't everyone nice?"
5- not really, but thanks.
megan - 03/11/08 22:43
1) Obligation
2) Yes. I was excited to go to church of different faith(I went growing up as a Methodist). I went, and it felt very manipulative and pushy (it was born again Christianity, so maybe my experience was a little heavy handed. They were determined to "save" me...)
3) No. I never have. :/
4) I would ask Him if karma was absolute, or if bad people sometimes live fully good lives without any repercussions for their misdeeds.
5) I would like prayer for my family's health and well-being. I think I pray in my own way. Whether it is directed at God or not isn't my main focus. It's more in the strength of positive thought.
1) Obligation
2) Yes. I was excited to go to church of different faith(I went growing up as a Methodist). I went, and it felt very manipulative and pushy (it was born again Christianity, so maybe my experience was a little heavy handed. They were determined to "save" me...)
3) No. I never have. :/
4) I would ask Him if karma was absolute, or if bad people sometimes live fully good lives without any repercussions for their misdeeds.
5) I would like prayer for my family's health and well-being. I think I pray in my own way. Whether it is directed at God or not isn't my main focus. It's more in the strength of positive thought.
kookcity2000 - 03/11/08 00:26
dude I think we conversed for hours about similar topics in New Orleans
dude I think we conversed for hours about similar topics in New Orleans
drew - 03/10/08 23:08
yes. Christian rock in general is bad. Done badly, it becomes exponentially worse.
yes. Christian rock in general is bad. Done badly, it becomes exponentially worse.
james - 03/10/08 22:59
1) Catholic pomp and circumstance. My cousin biting the back of the pew as a child.
2) Yes and yes. A church opened up a few blocks away from my childhood home. The youth pastor went door to door looking for anyone remotely young to bring. Being young, arrogant, and having read a bit of Jung I thought I was informed enough to engage in a reasoned debate about religion with this guy. Since I made the point that all religions are fundamentally the same he invites me to a service. It would have been hypocritical of me to not go, so I do. Christian rock generally is terrible, but the Christian rock house band they had was profoundly terrible. When he asked me how it was, I felt so awkward. I didn't want to insult his band, but man. He later invited me to a party. Thinking a party was a party I said sure. No, it ended up being an intervention where strangers drank strong kool-aid* and confronted me about my lack of specific faith.
3) When I was a real little kid I thought god and I were tight. Puberty did away with that. It was such a magical feeling. Like at any second I could have stigmata, or make statues cry just by being in my holy presence. Nothing kills that like a cracking voice and pubic hair.
4) And take the mystery out of things? No way.
5) No thank you.
1) Catholic pomp and circumstance. My cousin biting the back of the pew as a child.
2) Yes and yes. A church opened up a few blocks away from my childhood home. The youth pastor went door to door looking for anyone remotely young to bring. Being young, arrogant, and having read a bit of Jung I thought I was informed enough to engage in a reasoned debate about religion with this guy. Since I made the point that all religions are fundamentally the same he invites me to a service. It would have been hypocritical of me to not go, so I do. Christian rock generally is terrible, but the Christian rock house band they had was profoundly terrible. When he asked me how it was, I felt so awkward. I didn't want to insult his band, but man. He later invited me to a party. Thinking a party was a party I said sure. No, it ended up being an intervention where strangers drank strong kool-aid* and confronted me about my lack of specific faith.
3) When I was a real little kid I thought god and I were tight. Puberty did away with that. It was such a magical feeling. Like at any second I could have stigmata, or make statues cry just by being in my holy presence. Nothing kills that like a cracking voice and pubic hair.
4) And take the mystery out of things? No way.
5) No thank you.
- note: I meant literal kool-aid.
03/05/2008 12:38 #43561
What if?Category: politics
About 30 years ago, the parties flipped. Republicans used to like abortion, and Dems did not. If you think about this callously, it makes sense. More poor people have abortions, more poor people vote for Democrats. More abortions = more power for republicans. Democrats were always for "the little guy," and that once included the unborn.
I don't know why Democrats flipped.
The point of this is not to advocate for or against any abortion law. I understand both sides of that argument. I just want to point out one thing:
Many Christian voters, including many in my family, only vote for Republicans because of abortion. The rest of the platform doesn't matter.
For whatever reason, torture and war don't matter, but abortion does.
Once upon a time, the whole Roman Catholic church voted for Democrats.
I wonder, if that "flip" never happened, if the war would have happened? I wonder if Ronald Reagan would have been elected president?
Today, A pro-life democrat may never get the party's nomination, but he or she would walk in the general election. It would be a Reagan-style blow out.
I don't know why Democrats flipped.
The point of this is not to advocate for or against any abortion law. I understand both sides of that argument. I just want to point out one thing:
Many Christian voters, including many in my family, only vote for Republicans because of abortion. The rest of the platform doesn't matter.
For whatever reason, torture and war don't matter, but abortion does.
Once upon a time, the whole Roman Catholic church voted for Democrats.
I wonder, if that "flip" never happened, if the war would have happened? I wonder if Ronald Reagan would have been elected president?
Today, A pro-life democrat may never get the party's nomination, but he or she would walk in the general election. It would be a Reagan-style blow out.
jason - 03/05/08 13:00
Fascinating. I have some Liberal friends who are pretty much the same way - one issue voter on the abortion argument. I really don't understand that mode of thinking. What, the economy, national security, taxes, foreign policy, none of that stuff matters?
Call me cynical, but I think the Democrats flipped strictly because of fealty to powerful special interests. A pro-lifer could never be the Democratic nominee today, and probably not in the near future either. They would get the usual treatment, get castigated, called anti-woman, a 1800's throwback, and that's on the nice end of things.
Regardless of this flip, yes I do think Reagan would have won, because Carter was so unpopular (Kennedy even mounted a challenge), and his administration was so ineffective. Abortion policy was the least of our concerns in those days. I think he's been a much more effective personality outside of US politics, for what it's worth.
I don't really disagree that a Moderate (Pro Life) Democrat could win handily these days. The opportunity is certainly out there.
Fascinating. I have some Liberal friends who are pretty much the same way - one issue voter on the abortion argument. I really don't understand that mode of thinking. What, the economy, national security, taxes, foreign policy, none of that stuff matters?
Call me cynical, but I think the Democrats flipped strictly because of fealty to powerful special interests. A pro-lifer could never be the Democratic nominee today, and probably not in the near future either. They would get the usual treatment, get castigated, called anti-woman, a 1800's throwback, and that's on the nice end of things.
Regardless of this flip, yes I do think Reagan would have won, because Carter was so unpopular (Kennedy even mounted a challenge), and his administration was so ineffective. Abortion policy was the least of our concerns in those days. I think he's been a much more effective personality outside of US politics, for what it's worth.
I don't really disagree that a Moderate (Pro Life) Democrat could win handily these days. The opportunity is certainly out there.
james - 03/05/08 13:00
About half the country supports abortion, if both major parties did not support abortion and worked towards a constitutional amendment outlawing it a third party would have formed. Women make up 55%-60% of the democratic party. It is hard to imagine them remaining a viable party with much of their base disinterested.
Also, my mom used to be a Democrat. Then she found Jesus and became super Catholic. She was suckered into the GOP on abortion. Now she is a war hawk, thinks all people on welfare are black welfare queens, and is disappointed Mike Huckabee did not get the nomination despite the fact I told her she thinks everyone with AIDS should be sent to an island and homosexuals are just as 'bad' as necrophiles and zoophiles. I think abortion gets people into church and they later drag you to the alter.
But, it is certainly an interesting 'what if?'
About half the country supports abortion, if both major parties did not support abortion and worked towards a constitutional amendment outlawing it a third party would have formed. Women make up 55%-60% of the democratic party. It is hard to imagine them remaining a viable party with much of their base disinterested.
Also, my mom used to be a Democrat. Then she found Jesus and became super Catholic. She was suckered into the GOP on abortion. Now she is a war hawk, thinks all people on welfare are black welfare queens, and is disappointed Mike Huckabee did not get the nomination despite the fact I told her she thinks everyone with AIDS should be sent to an island and homosexuals are just as 'bad' as necrophiles and zoophiles. I think abortion gets people into church and they later drag you to the alter.
But, it is certainly an interesting 'what if?'
You call that a prayer battle?
19. The Lord said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch forth your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, over their canals, over their ponds, and over all their bodies of water, and they will become blood, and there will be blood throughout the entire land of Egypt, even in wood and in stone.' "
20. Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord had commanded, and he raised the staff and struck the water that was in the Nile before the eyes of Pharaoh and before the eyes of his servants, and all the water that was in the Nile turned to blood.
21. And the fish that were in the Nile died, and the Nile became putrid; the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile, and there was blood throughout the entire land of Egypt.
22. And the necromancers of Egypt did likewise with their secret rites, and Pharaoh's heart was steadfast, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had spoken.
23. Pharaoh turned and went home, and he paid no heed even to this.
24. All the Egyptians dug around the Nile for water to drink because they could not drink from the water of the Nile.
25. Seven full days passed after the Lord had smitten the Nile.
26. The Lord said to Moses, "Come to Pharaoh and say to him, 'So said the Lord, "Let My people go, so that they may serve Me.
27. But if you refuse to let [them] go, behold, I will smite all your borders with frogs.
28. And the Nile will swarm with frogs, and they will go up and come into your house and into your bedroom and upon your bed and into the house of your servants and into your people, and into your ovens and into your kneading troughs;
29. and into you and into your people and into all your servants, the frogs will ascend." ' "
1. The Lord said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, stretch forth your hand with your staff over the rivers, over the canals, and over the ponds, and bring up the frogs on the land of Egypt."
2. And Aaron stretched forth his hand over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt.
3. And the necromancers did likewise with their secret rites, and they brought up the frogs on the land of Egypt.
4. Thereupon, Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron, and said, "Entreat the Lord that He remove the frogs from me and from my people, and I will let out the people [of Israel] so that they may sacrifice to the Lord."
5. And Moses said to Pharaoh, "Boast [of your superiority] over me. For when shall I entreat for you, for your servants, and for your people, to destroy the frogs from you and from your houses, [that] they should remain only in the Nile? "
6. And he [Pharaoh] said, "For tomorrow." And he [Moses] said, "As you say, in order that you should know that there is none like the Lord, our God.
7. And the frogs will depart from you and from your houses and from your servants and from your people; only in the Nile will they remain."
8. And Moses and Aaron went away from Pharaoh, and Moses cried out to the Lord concerning the frogs that He had brought upon Pharaoh.
9. And the Lord did according to Moses' word, and the frogs died from the houses, from the courtyards, and from the fields.
10. They gathered them into many heaps, and the land stank.
11. When Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart, and he did not hearken to them, as the Lord had spoken.
12. The Lord said to Moses, "Say to Aaron, 'Stretch forth your staff and strike the dust of the earth, and it shall become lice throughout the entire land of Egypt.' "
13. They did so, and Aaron stretched forth his hand with his staff and struck the dust of the earth, and the lice were upon man and beast; all the dust of the earth became lice throughout the entire land of Egypt.
14. And the necromancers did likewise with their secret rites to bring out the lice, but they could not, and the lice were upon man and beast.
Now that's a prayer battle. Plague-for-plague grudge match.
This story always reminds me of the "Experiencing God" study by Henry Blackaby that I've done in the (now distant) past...
Reminds me of the parable of Jacob and the Monster Truck rally. ^_^