It is time to change the tearms of the debate from, "Winning", "Victory", or "defeating the terrorists", to this... Ending the violence.
Iraq has become a cesspool of revenge killings and hatred. The US is in a situation where our millitary is essentially just another Millitia battling for controll of Iraq. That is nothing but a recipe for disaster.
This is not a battle in which we can simply allign ourselves with one side of the struggle and try to defeat the other. This is a country in crisis, where neighbors are killing eachother for the sake of revenge. You kill my family I kill yours. And the more killing that goes on, more hatred is created, and the more evil the other side seems.
There is a solution, but it has very little to do with military strategy. Talking about a surge in troops, or attacking this militia or that one, or reoccupying this city or that city is meaningless without addressing the real problem, Violence. Stop the killing and you will have success. All of our involvment sohould be focused on reconcilliation, and easing the tensions, and establishing a system of justice that does not come from the barrel of a gun.
No sir, this is not about "winning" it's about Ending the Violence.
Dcoffee's Journal
My Podcast Link
12/20/2006 13:11 #21759
Changing the war debateCategory: war
11/08/2006 23:58 #21758
America Saves itselfCategory: politics
I have been so worried about the fate of this country. We have been traveling down a very dangerous path.
The manipulation of fear and prejudice for political gain is a recipe for disaster, it is the most severe challenge democracies face. The manipulation of fear, and the demonizing of a shadowy enemy is a classic tactic for the strangling of democracy. This has killed democracies in the past, and it was very alarming to see it's ugly head in America again.
Thank you America for stepping back from the brink of fascism. I had a feeling that we would not be so easily fooled into submission. I knew that there were certain things that America would not stand for like suppression of the freedom of speech, and our right to demand answers and accountability from the government. I had a feeling that these strengths would carry us through this radical un-American regime. And I'm happy to say we still have the will and the power to save ourselves.
We have a lot stacked against us. The bush administration broke a lot of constitutional boundaries designed to protect us. They showed no regard for checks and balances, they even flaunted the subversion of the constitution and the rule of law openly, and sadly some Americans fell for it.
This is one of the most secretive administrations in history, information control is a high priority for Bush and company, and that is very dangerous. National security was the excuse, but saving face or avoiding retribution was often the real motive. Thankfully some whistleblowers had the courage to release the information about Abu Graib, the NSA spy program, the manipulation of Iraq intelligence, and countless others.
This is also one of the most manipulative administrations in history. They are not afraid to lie in our face. to say things like "Saddam Hussein harbors terrorists. And there are al-Qaeda in Iraq" Bush conveniently left out the fact that those al-Qaeda were trying to overthrow Saddam so he couldn't possibly give them WMD. But this was one of many manipulative sales pitches. lip service to renewable energy and handouts to oil companies. He read the CIA report that the war in Iraq was making us less safe and he lied to us about it before the report was leaked. Uranium from Africa was obviously false, he lied about it.
Subverting the rule of law. Abandoning treaties like the ABM treaty, Kyoto, small arms trade limiting treaties. Calling the Geneva conventions "quaint" the list goes on. This executive branch put itself above the law, that's not how America works.
Wonton destruction of international ties, disregard for allies and other nations. I don't know about you but I wish we had some friends left in this world.
Starting another Arms Race, by trying to scare the world into submission. it doesn't work that way. You need allies, friendships make you safer because you have more people watching your back. All you fuckers who were talking about letting France and the UN dictate American foreign policy.. "oooh nobody can hold us back.. we won't let anybody tell us what to do.. we know everything.. our ideas are better than everyone else.. we don't need to have a conversation or ask for advice.. or check with people who know more about the middle east than we do..." How do you feel now? We invaded Iraq, kicked out the inspectors, and said, bombs are better, we need to kill first and look for WMD later. hey, good fucking job asshole. next time all you Bill Kristols of the world Shut The Fuck Up!!
Man did we lose a lot. We really have. What a shame we don't learn from history. It took us this long to figure stuff out.
Now we have a health care system that serves the drug companies before the people. the Medicare prescription Drug giveaway, you know the government can't negotiate for lower prices? Why not the Veterans Administration drug plan does? oh, right, corruption, line the pockets of the richest Americans.
That explains why we're giving tax breaks to the richest companies in the world, the oil and gas companies. Hello!! they're making record profits, they don't need any subsidies, or any help, they need to be taxed!
Let's spend billions on a war, where all the money goes into the pockets of defense contractors who aren't doing their job. They are charging us tax payers $80 for a case of Coca Cola! They are driving around with empty trucks because they get paid by the trip, they don't have to deliver anything.
Yea global warming doesn't exist, how come the only people who believe that crap are scientists that are paid by the energy industry or the Republican party.
and the deficit, what happened to fiscal responsibility? Bush DOUBLED the deficit in just 6 years, sending us 600 billion more in debt, way to go you fiscal conservative you.
I think the internet helped us a lot. We quickly found out if somebody was lying by doing a Google search and finding the transcript or video of the lie. Tons of concerned people were linking back and forth, pointing to official documents and mind blowing investigations. Secrecy is not so easy nowadays.
We have just overcome something big. This Republican government war drunk with power.
What does a Democratic Congress Mean
Contrary to Republican scare tactics, I don't think it is going to be payback time. I don't think the most liberal policies are going to be suddenly thrust down the throats of an unwilling electorate. and I don't think the democrats are going to be the congressional bullies. Although no matter what they do they couldn't possibly top the last 4 years of republican rule.
It boggles the mind when conservatives warn against polarizing the country. Does "you're either with us or your with the terrorists" ring a bell? how about straight party line votes in congress, and wedge issues like flag burning and gay marriage. I have the scream when republicans talk about Democrats being divisive.
But back to the point, I think Democrats know that a lot of people should be on their side, and they're going to show it. They aren't going to be divisive, there are so many issues ahead of things like abortion and gay marriage, they won't have time for those, nor do they want to bother calming oppositional voices. Republican citizens have been voting against their best interests for a long time. And over the past 6 years Republicans have become the party of the Super Rich, while the middle class has shrunk. The Democrats are going to go for those broadly supported yet long neglected issues that everyone agrees upon.
The democrats will work on raising the minimum wage. They got a bill to the floor but the Republicans put abolishing the estate tax on the same bill so it failed. Anyone have an estate worth over $7 million? ok none of you will pay the estate tax, only .5% of estates pay any tax whatsoever. gee sounds like a pressing issue
They will also work on Energy independence. Scary huh? too bad everyone supports that. getting rid of fat oil companies and high gas prices, sound's like a far left fringe issue to me.
They will also investigate where our tax money is being wasted. Hmm I thought that used to concern republicans.. I guess power and campaign contributions made looking after our tax dollars a non-issue, wasting tax money became a great policy when it went to their friends in the oil and pharmaceutical industries.
There will be investigations on waste and fraud in Iraq.
The Medicare Prescription Drug Plan will be amended so that the government can buy in bulk and negotiate for lower prices. Hmm saving my money.
Social Security is not in as much danger as the Republicans made you believe, small changes will be put forward eventually.
Taxes, you have to face it, the whole mantra of lower taxes is a bunch of bullshit that republicans pay lip service to. How come the middle class hasn't felt any tax relief? and how come our jobs pay less, and our money buys less than it has since the 60s? The Republicans have lowered taxes all right, on the top 1% of America. And guess what it hasn't stimulated the economy at all!!!
There is a simple equation for this economic taxation mumbo jumbo. If you want to stimulate the economy, you give money to the people who are most likely to spend it. Wow, that's not so hard, how come nobody told the president? The people most likely to spend money are Those who need new cars, a new water heater, a new roof, a paint job, a new TV, to pay off their credit card, go out to dinner for once, a new house, maybe they stop renting and buy a house, new shoes, a winter jacket, a new computer on and on. It's an indisputable fact that the middle and lower class spend money, not the richest 1%. We have given all the tax breaks to the top 1% they put it in the bank, the end. No seriously someone has $4 million in assets, you give them an extra $8,000, they might expand their business and hire new employees, but most likely it's going to the bank to earn interest. They don't really need that money, they're ok as it is, they can choose to spend it or not. Unlike you and me, who really need that new car but we can't afford it, we really need to do some home repair, and we need to buy a house and stop living paycheck to paycheck. We will spend the money, that stimulates the economy.
So eventually we're going to have to get some money into the pockets of the middle class and the working poor. We will have to raise taxes on the rich... go cry me a river, I said we're going to have to raise taxes on the rich. Sorry, the democrats won't be acting on that one any time soon, they can't cause the Republicans will manipulate it for all it's worth, "high taxes, kill jobs, hate America" you know, the usual. Bush's tax cuts will expire in 2010 but that's the best that can happen, and you know the Republicans will cry foul, even though it's the middle class that has been fouled for so long.
I just feel bad that the Democrats have to deal with Iraq, they were all lied to by Bush, and he knew it all along. Now we have a horrible mess, and those who aren't responsible will have to deal with it.
The manipulation of fear and prejudice for political gain is a recipe for disaster, it is the most severe challenge democracies face. The manipulation of fear, and the demonizing of a shadowy enemy is a classic tactic for the strangling of democracy. This has killed democracies in the past, and it was very alarming to see it's ugly head in America again.
Thank you America for stepping back from the brink of fascism. I had a feeling that we would not be so easily fooled into submission. I knew that there were certain things that America would not stand for like suppression of the freedom of speech, and our right to demand answers and accountability from the government. I had a feeling that these strengths would carry us through this radical un-American regime. And I'm happy to say we still have the will and the power to save ourselves.
We have a lot stacked against us. The bush administration broke a lot of constitutional boundaries designed to protect us. They showed no regard for checks and balances, they even flaunted the subversion of the constitution and the rule of law openly, and sadly some Americans fell for it.
This is one of the most secretive administrations in history, information control is a high priority for Bush and company, and that is very dangerous. National security was the excuse, but saving face or avoiding retribution was often the real motive. Thankfully some whistleblowers had the courage to release the information about Abu Graib, the NSA spy program, the manipulation of Iraq intelligence, and countless others.
This is also one of the most manipulative administrations in history. They are not afraid to lie in our face. to say things like "Saddam Hussein harbors terrorists. And there are al-Qaeda in Iraq" Bush conveniently left out the fact that those al-Qaeda were trying to overthrow Saddam so he couldn't possibly give them WMD. But this was one of many manipulative sales pitches. lip service to renewable energy and handouts to oil companies. He read the CIA report that the war in Iraq was making us less safe and he lied to us about it before the report was leaked. Uranium from Africa was obviously false, he lied about it.
Subverting the rule of law. Abandoning treaties like the ABM treaty, Kyoto, small arms trade limiting treaties. Calling the Geneva conventions "quaint" the list goes on. This executive branch put itself above the law, that's not how America works.
Wonton destruction of international ties, disregard for allies and other nations. I don't know about you but I wish we had some friends left in this world.
Starting another Arms Race, by trying to scare the world into submission. it doesn't work that way. You need allies, friendships make you safer because you have more people watching your back. All you fuckers who were talking about letting France and the UN dictate American foreign policy.. "oooh nobody can hold us back.. we won't let anybody tell us what to do.. we know everything.. our ideas are better than everyone else.. we don't need to have a conversation or ask for advice.. or check with people who know more about the middle east than we do..." How do you feel now? We invaded Iraq, kicked out the inspectors, and said, bombs are better, we need to kill first and look for WMD later. hey, good fucking job asshole. next time all you Bill Kristols of the world Shut The Fuck Up!!
Man did we lose a lot. We really have. What a shame we don't learn from history. It took us this long to figure stuff out.
Now we have a health care system that serves the drug companies before the people. the Medicare prescription Drug giveaway, you know the government can't negotiate for lower prices? Why not the Veterans Administration drug plan does? oh, right, corruption, line the pockets of the richest Americans.
That explains why we're giving tax breaks to the richest companies in the world, the oil and gas companies. Hello!! they're making record profits, they don't need any subsidies, or any help, they need to be taxed!
Let's spend billions on a war, where all the money goes into the pockets of defense contractors who aren't doing their job. They are charging us tax payers $80 for a case of Coca Cola! They are driving around with empty trucks because they get paid by the trip, they don't have to deliver anything.
Yea global warming doesn't exist, how come the only people who believe that crap are scientists that are paid by the energy industry or the Republican party.
and the deficit, what happened to fiscal responsibility? Bush DOUBLED the deficit in just 6 years, sending us 600 billion more in debt, way to go you fiscal conservative you.
I think the internet helped us a lot. We quickly found out if somebody was lying by doing a Google search and finding the transcript or video of the lie. Tons of concerned people were linking back and forth, pointing to official documents and mind blowing investigations. Secrecy is not so easy nowadays.
We have just overcome something big. This Republican government war drunk with power.
What does a Democratic Congress Mean
Contrary to Republican scare tactics, I don't think it is going to be payback time. I don't think the most liberal policies are going to be suddenly thrust down the throats of an unwilling electorate. and I don't think the democrats are going to be the congressional bullies. Although no matter what they do they couldn't possibly top the last 4 years of republican rule.
It boggles the mind when conservatives warn against polarizing the country. Does "you're either with us or your with the terrorists" ring a bell? how about straight party line votes in congress, and wedge issues like flag burning and gay marriage. I have the scream when republicans talk about Democrats being divisive.
But back to the point, I think Democrats know that a lot of people should be on their side, and they're going to show it. They aren't going to be divisive, there are so many issues ahead of things like abortion and gay marriage, they won't have time for those, nor do they want to bother calming oppositional voices. Republican citizens have been voting against their best interests for a long time. And over the past 6 years Republicans have become the party of the Super Rich, while the middle class has shrunk. The Democrats are going to go for those broadly supported yet long neglected issues that everyone agrees upon.
The democrats will work on raising the minimum wage. They got a bill to the floor but the Republicans put abolishing the estate tax on the same bill so it failed. Anyone have an estate worth over $7 million? ok none of you will pay the estate tax, only .5% of estates pay any tax whatsoever. gee sounds like a pressing issue
They will also work on Energy independence. Scary huh? too bad everyone supports that. getting rid of fat oil companies and high gas prices, sound's like a far left fringe issue to me.
They will also investigate where our tax money is being wasted. Hmm I thought that used to concern republicans.. I guess power and campaign contributions made looking after our tax dollars a non-issue, wasting tax money became a great policy when it went to their friends in the oil and pharmaceutical industries.
There will be investigations on waste and fraud in Iraq.
The Medicare Prescription Drug Plan will be amended so that the government can buy in bulk and negotiate for lower prices. Hmm saving my money.
Social Security is not in as much danger as the Republicans made you believe, small changes will be put forward eventually.
Taxes, you have to face it, the whole mantra of lower taxes is a bunch of bullshit that republicans pay lip service to. How come the middle class hasn't felt any tax relief? and how come our jobs pay less, and our money buys less than it has since the 60s? The Republicans have lowered taxes all right, on the top 1% of America. And guess what it hasn't stimulated the economy at all!!!
There is a simple equation for this economic taxation mumbo jumbo. If you want to stimulate the economy, you give money to the people who are most likely to spend it. Wow, that's not so hard, how come nobody told the president? The people most likely to spend money are Those who need new cars, a new water heater, a new roof, a paint job, a new TV, to pay off their credit card, go out to dinner for once, a new house, maybe they stop renting and buy a house, new shoes, a winter jacket, a new computer on and on. It's an indisputable fact that the middle and lower class spend money, not the richest 1%. We have given all the tax breaks to the top 1% they put it in the bank, the end. No seriously someone has $4 million in assets, you give them an extra $8,000, they might expand their business and hire new employees, but most likely it's going to the bank to earn interest. They don't really need that money, they're ok as it is, they can choose to spend it or not. Unlike you and me, who really need that new car but we can't afford it, we really need to do some home repair, and we need to buy a house and stop living paycheck to paycheck. We will spend the money, that stimulates the economy.
So eventually we're going to have to get some money into the pockets of the middle class and the working poor. We will have to raise taxes on the rich... go cry me a river, I said we're going to have to raise taxes on the rich. Sorry, the democrats won't be acting on that one any time soon, they can't cause the Republicans will manipulate it for all it's worth, "high taxes, kill jobs, hate America" you know, the usual. Bush's tax cuts will expire in 2010 but that's the best that can happen, and you know the Republicans will cry foul, even though it's the middle class that has been fouled for so long.
I just feel bad that the Democrats have to deal with Iraq, they were all lied to by Bush, and he knew it all along. Now we have a horrible mess, and those who aren't responsible will have to deal with it.
kookcity2000 - 11/11/06 17:00
I still don't feel all that saved
I still don't feel all that saved
dcoffee - 11/09/06 21:11
Josh, I agree with you "What is good for corporations is rarely good for the average guy on the street" let's start there and protect jobs from going over seas to countries with questionable human rights records. Fact is if Americans got paid better Wal-Mart wouldn't be necessary. Funny thing, business always tries to argue that raising wages hurts the economy, but in every american state that has raised the minimum wage the economy has gotten better as a direct result, because you are doing exactly what I said, giving money to the people who are most likely to spend it. Maybe raising takes on the rich isn't necessary if you can find some other way to funnel money downward through wages and reducing expenses.
And by the way, health care is a big expense for American corporations, let's reduce their bottom line and enable them to sell for less by getting rid of the burden of healthcare. This is a big fish to fry, but the benefits are obvious. it's unfair that american corporations have to pick up the tab for healthcare. It's shocking that so few corporations are advocating for a single payer government healthcare system. Also the burden is shared by the employees who pay a premium for coverage, they would have more money in their pockets if healthcare was covered through taxes rather than out of pocket every month. I don't know what the specific solution to this is, but I'm sure we could come up with a system that pleased both you and me. We have the most expensive healthcare system but we are ranked about #25 for health. This is a problem that won't be solved without government intervention. And I'm sure we could come up with a fair solution that you and I, and rational people everywhere could agree upon.
Josh, I agree with you "What is good for corporations is rarely good for the average guy on the street" let's start there and protect jobs from going over seas to countries with questionable human rights records. Fact is if Americans got paid better Wal-Mart wouldn't be necessary. Funny thing, business always tries to argue that raising wages hurts the economy, but in every american state that has raised the minimum wage the economy has gotten better as a direct result, because you are doing exactly what I said, giving money to the people who are most likely to spend it. Maybe raising takes on the rich isn't necessary if you can find some other way to funnel money downward through wages and reducing expenses.
And by the way, health care is a big expense for American corporations, let's reduce their bottom line and enable them to sell for less by getting rid of the burden of healthcare. This is a big fish to fry, but the benefits are obvious. it's unfair that american corporations have to pick up the tab for healthcare. It's shocking that so few corporations are advocating for a single payer government healthcare system. Also the burden is shared by the employees who pay a premium for coverage, they would have more money in their pockets if healthcare was covered through taxes rather than out of pocket every month. I don't know what the specific solution to this is, but I'm sure we could come up with a system that pleased both you and me. We have the most expensive healthcare system but we are ranked about #25 for health. This is a problem that won't be solved without government intervention. And I'm sure we could come up with a fair solution that you and I, and rational people everywhere could agree upon.
mmtornow - 11/09/06 17:25
HEELLLLL YEAAH!!!
Very nicely written... Sarcastic and Entertaining- But all so very true.
Now I see why you were up all night writing this... :-)
HEELLLLL YEAAH!!!
Very nicely written... Sarcastic and Entertaining- But all so very true.
Now I see why you were up all night writing this... :-)
joshua - 11/09/06 17:10
The bottom half of Americans pay exponentially less in taxes than the top half - if the only way to make middle class people "feel it" is by taking from the rich to give to the poor I am 100% against it. Where I'm absolutely gagging to see tax reform is the so-called corporate welfare. Nobody in their right mind believes that oil companies need tax breaks, and I hope that the Democrats end it ASAP. Prepare for the oil companies to throw a fit and threaten higher gas prices, however.
When you aren't in power, you don't get to run the agenda - this is why Democrats (up until now!) have not had much of a say in having hearings and getting bills to the floor. Theres no dirty tricks involved there - if you don't run the comittees then you cannot call hearings and getting opposing legislation through is very difficult. Matt Taibbi's piece was amateurish, and the only reason why it got published in RS was because of the fierce anti-Republican rhretoric. RS is worse for having a little bit of the Beast in it.
I'm all for people having more money in their pockets, but it is wrong to rob Peter to give to Paul. Whether or not they really need the money is irrelevant - the richest pay the most taxes and as a result receive substantially more back when taxes are cut. Doing what I do for a living, however, I can tell you that the erosion of the middle class is real - I've seen it up close in 32 states.
The economy is fantastic - that is, if you have money invested in the stock market. You are incorrect about whether or not the tax cuts have stimulated the economy. If you look at the statistics, everything looks great - low unemployment, market highs, more home owners than any time in American history, etc. - much like everything else, from what I've seen with my own eyes, I don't think stats tell the whole story. Trickle down economics does work, to an extent - taxes have been cut yet receipts are high. Middle class Americans HAVE gotten more tax money back then they had previously. The economy *has* been stimulated to a great extent as a result of the tax cuts.
Where the Republicans failed, and I hope the Democrats suceed, is in protecting American jobs from going overseas and begin doing less business with countries with questionable human rights records. What is good for corporations is rarely good for the average guy on the street. The bottom line is this, who do you trust more to be benevolent to the middle class - corporations or government? Its a global economy, and similarly Americans should expect to have to compete in the global marketplace. This means, unfortunately, that unless you want to pay $30 for a white t-shirt and $130 for a pair of Levi's, Americans will have to adapt.
It is basically the Wal-Mart paradox - people love Wal-Mart, particularly in rural areas, because their money goes further. Wal-Mart achieves this by being ruthless in negotiating price, which trickles down to the manufacturers... the people I visit. The #1 controllable cost for manufacturers is labor, which is why production has been going overseas. As long as Americans want cheap stuff (and demand for cheap stuff is extraordinarily high), its going to have to be made overseas in order for people to continue paying low prices. Very few of the American manufacturers that I've visited pay extraordinarily high wages. Some places I've visited pay on average $50k a year, while others pay strictly minimum wage - in order for American companies to compete, you can guess which end of the spectrum the majority lies in if they aren't in a niche market.
I'm interested to see if Democrats have a solution for this.
The bottom half of Americans pay exponentially less in taxes than the top half - if the only way to make middle class people "feel it" is by taking from the rich to give to the poor I am 100% against it. Where I'm absolutely gagging to see tax reform is the so-called corporate welfare. Nobody in their right mind believes that oil companies need tax breaks, and I hope that the Democrats end it ASAP. Prepare for the oil companies to throw a fit and threaten higher gas prices, however.
When you aren't in power, you don't get to run the agenda - this is why Democrats (up until now!) have not had much of a say in having hearings and getting bills to the floor. Theres no dirty tricks involved there - if you don't run the comittees then you cannot call hearings and getting opposing legislation through is very difficult. Matt Taibbi's piece was amateurish, and the only reason why it got published in RS was because of the fierce anti-Republican rhretoric. RS is worse for having a little bit of the Beast in it.
I'm all for people having more money in their pockets, but it is wrong to rob Peter to give to Paul. Whether or not they really need the money is irrelevant - the richest pay the most taxes and as a result receive substantially more back when taxes are cut. Doing what I do for a living, however, I can tell you that the erosion of the middle class is real - I've seen it up close in 32 states.
The economy is fantastic - that is, if you have money invested in the stock market. You are incorrect about whether or not the tax cuts have stimulated the economy. If you look at the statistics, everything looks great - low unemployment, market highs, more home owners than any time in American history, etc. - much like everything else, from what I've seen with my own eyes, I don't think stats tell the whole story. Trickle down economics does work, to an extent - taxes have been cut yet receipts are high. Middle class Americans HAVE gotten more tax money back then they had previously. The economy *has* been stimulated to a great extent as a result of the tax cuts.
Where the Republicans failed, and I hope the Democrats suceed, is in protecting American jobs from going overseas and begin doing less business with countries with questionable human rights records. What is good for corporations is rarely good for the average guy on the street. The bottom line is this, who do you trust more to be benevolent to the middle class - corporations or government? Its a global economy, and similarly Americans should expect to have to compete in the global marketplace. This means, unfortunately, that unless you want to pay $30 for a white t-shirt and $130 for a pair of Levi's, Americans will have to adapt.
It is basically the Wal-Mart paradox - people love Wal-Mart, particularly in rural areas, because their money goes further. Wal-Mart achieves this by being ruthless in negotiating price, which trickles down to the manufacturers... the people I visit. The #1 controllable cost for manufacturers is labor, which is why production has been going overseas. As long as Americans want cheap stuff (and demand for cheap stuff is extraordinarily high), its going to have to be made overseas in order for people to continue paying low prices. Very few of the American manufacturers that I've visited pay extraordinarily high wages. Some places I've visited pay on average $50k a year, while others pay strictly minimum wage - in order for American companies to compete, you can guess which end of the spectrum the majority lies in if they aren't in a niche market.
I'm interested to see if Democrats have a solution for this.
jason - 11/09/06 12:50
Sure David, if you want a little back and forth I'm willing to oblige. We've always gotten along and I know we can learn from each other.
Sure David, if you want a little back and forth I'm willing to oblige. We've always gotten along and I know we can learn from each other.
dcoffee - 11/09/06 12:13
I don't care if ALL the issues I support are addressed, what I am happiest about is that we will no longer be unilaterally ruled by dangerous extremists. Bush and the neo-cons represent a radical regime and I'm glad Americans have woken up. I don't think it's right to shove your agenda down anybody's throat. Bush was constantly saying "HaHa Fuck You" to the democrats when he used his signing statements, and the republicans twisted people's arms to get some radical legislation passed on a party line vote. They used every dirty trick in the book to prevent democrats from having Hearings, getting bills to the floor, having a say on committee reports and etc, if you want to know how much the democrats were bullied by the Republicans I'd like you the Read Matt Taibbi's piece in Rolling Stone, "The Worst Congress Ever" :::link::: Matt did a lot of research and interviews, there are some amazing stories told by congress people about republican bullying. I'm happy to end that era.
This is my position on Democracy. I don't believe in any particular team, I believe that if you have a diverse group of people rationally discussing how to handle an issue, if people aren't stubborn, and are willing to see the issue from somebody else's perspective, you will get good policy. I don't think good policy comes from one team or another, it's the thoughtful democratic exchange that creates good policy. The congress isn't at a point where it can impeach bush or raise taxes, oh well, I still think we are going to have a more democratic discussion there (democratic with a small 'd') more civility, more open and honest, and that is a big deal.
PS I'd love to hear your criticisms if you get a chance. I always want to know what king of holes are left in my arguments.. it's that whole democratic exchange thing.
I don't care if ALL the issues I support are addressed, what I am happiest about is that we will no longer be unilaterally ruled by dangerous extremists. Bush and the neo-cons represent a radical regime and I'm glad Americans have woken up. I don't think it's right to shove your agenda down anybody's throat. Bush was constantly saying "HaHa Fuck You" to the democrats when he used his signing statements, and the republicans twisted people's arms to get some radical legislation passed on a party line vote. They used every dirty trick in the book to prevent democrats from having Hearings, getting bills to the floor, having a say on committee reports and etc, if you want to know how much the democrats were bullied by the Republicans I'd like you the Read Matt Taibbi's piece in Rolling Stone, "The Worst Congress Ever" :::link::: Matt did a lot of research and interviews, there are some amazing stories told by congress people about republican bullying. I'm happy to end that era.
This is my position on Democracy. I don't believe in any particular team, I believe that if you have a diverse group of people rationally discussing how to handle an issue, if people aren't stubborn, and are willing to see the issue from somebody else's perspective, you will get good policy. I don't think good policy comes from one team or another, it's the thoughtful democratic exchange that creates good policy. The congress isn't at a point where it can impeach bush or raise taxes, oh well, I still think we are going to have a more democratic discussion there (democratic with a small 'd') more civility, more open and honest, and that is a big deal.
PS I'd love to hear your criticisms if you get a chance. I always want to know what king of holes are left in my arguments.. it's that whole democratic exchange thing.
jason - 11/09/06 08:46
Actually I do have a question for you David. You say you want taxes raised, and Ajay says he wants impeachment. Have you been watching what Pelosi, et al have said? Neither are going to happen, if you believe politicians anyway, so why would Liberals like yourself and Ajay cheer on policies that, at the core, you disagree with? Is it a case of, well at least we aren't run by the far right anymore?
Actually I do have a question for you David. You say you want taxes raised, and Ajay says he wants impeachment. Have you been watching what Pelosi, et al have said? Neither are going to happen, if you believe politicians anyway, so why would Liberals like yourself and Ajay cheer on policies that, at the core, you disagree with? Is it a case of, well at least we aren't run by the far right anymore?
jason - 11/09/06 08:37
I vehemently disagree with a lot of this rhetoric, but I'm glad that you're passionate and involved, because most young people aren't. Good for you.
I vehemently disagree with a lot of this rhetoric, but I'm glad that you're passionate and involved, because most young people aren't. Good for you.
11/07/2006 21:07 #21757
To Josh, Faith Based VotingCategory: elections
This is for (e:joshua)#207 and anyone else who believes we don't need to verify that votes have been correctly counted in America.
Do you doubt that politicians cheat in elections? You think nobody in America has ever intentionally cheated voters? Rigged voting counts, under-supplied voting machines in districts not favorable to them, jammed phone lines of the opposition party, called voters on the other side with misleading information to frustrate them and prevent them from voting?
Sorry to burst your bubble but all of these things happened in 2004, and in past elections. In 2004 some people went to jail for it. And guess what, most of the time the cheating was on the Republican side. I'm not saying nobody else has ever cheated, but the Republicans insult my intelligence on a daily basis, and I don't trust that they will respect me or my vote. Nor would I demand any fewer protections from Democratic or any type of cheating.
And I certainly don't trust paperless electronic voting machines. As far as I'm concerned that's like "faith based voting". No government Ever deserves that leisure. Honest, verifiable, and open elections, that's the basis of democracy. That's the principle of America, the idea of checks and balances, and the idea of a government ruled by the people. If the Executive or Legislative branch cheats, the judicial branch is there to enforce the rules, and make sure the interests of the people prevail. What better example than making sure votes are counted. This is an imposable task if the only record of the vote is a number on a computer screen, we all know how easy that is to manipulate.
Foul play happens, and we need to safeguard against it right away, or else we will be throwing away the dream of America, and pissing on the graves of our founding fathers and all the men and women who have died to preserve our noble democratic system.
I you don't want the election to drag on for days, get rid of Faith based Voting, and have stricter penalties for misleading or lying advertisements, voter intimidation, fake phone calls, and voter help line jamming.
And by the way, if the exit polls don't match the vote count, trust the exit polls, the vote count is wrong. Don't bullshit me, I'm a Political Science major, and half of that field is statistics. Exit polls are the one true check against corrupt vote counts, even in this country. We scrutinize power to make sure it is not abused, that's America. Don't stop now, or we'll lose everything.
Do you doubt that politicians cheat in elections? You think nobody in America has ever intentionally cheated voters? Rigged voting counts, under-supplied voting machines in districts not favorable to them, jammed phone lines of the opposition party, called voters on the other side with misleading information to frustrate them and prevent them from voting?
Sorry to burst your bubble but all of these things happened in 2004, and in past elections. In 2004 some people went to jail for it. And guess what, most of the time the cheating was on the Republican side. I'm not saying nobody else has ever cheated, but the Republicans insult my intelligence on a daily basis, and I don't trust that they will respect me or my vote. Nor would I demand any fewer protections from Democratic or any type of cheating.
And I certainly don't trust paperless electronic voting machines. As far as I'm concerned that's like "faith based voting". No government Ever deserves that leisure. Honest, verifiable, and open elections, that's the basis of democracy. That's the principle of America, the idea of checks and balances, and the idea of a government ruled by the people. If the Executive or Legislative branch cheats, the judicial branch is there to enforce the rules, and make sure the interests of the people prevail. What better example than making sure votes are counted. This is an imposable task if the only record of the vote is a number on a computer screen, we all know how easy that is to manipulate.
Foul play happens, and we need to safeguard against it right away, or else we will be throwing away the dream of America, and pissing on the graves of our founding fathers and all the men and women who have died to preserve our noble democratic system.
I you don't want the election to drag on for days, get rid of Faith based Voting, and have stricter penalties for misleading or lying advertisements, voter intimidation, fake phone calls, and voter help line jamming.
And by the way, if the exit polls don't match the vote count, trust the exit polls, the vote count is wrong. Don't bullshit me, I'm a Political Science major, and half of that field is statistics. Exit polls are the one true check against corrupt vote counts, even in this country. We scrutinize power to make sure it is not abused, that's America. Don't stop now, or we'll lose everything.
ajay - 11/09/06 01:54
(e:Joshua), sampling is a basic part of our daily lives. That computer you're typing on? Its components weren't tested; only a sample of the batches were tested. The reason people cried foul about the discrepancy between exit polls and the real results is because HISTORICALLY exit polls have not been far from the final results. If suddenly you start seeing huge deviations from the norm, then there must be something wrong somewhere (either in the polling methodology, or the actual polls).
You say "when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating". I think what you wanted to say was "when the Republicans are cheating, they aren't complaining about cheating".
Read about the New Hampshire phone jamming scandal which resulted in convictions: :::link:::
Why did the RNC spend over $2.5Million defending their operative in this case?
Why was the NRCC harassing Democratic voters with robocalls :::link::: ?
I'm not saying Democrats are saints; but compared to the Republicans, they don't have to be. ;-)
PS: Watch this :::link:::
(e:Joshua), sampling is a basic part of our daily lives. That computer you're typing on? Its components weren't tested; only a sample of the batches were tested. The reason people cried foul about the discrepancy between exit polls and the real results is because HISTORICALLY exit polls have not been far from the final results. If suddenly you start seeing huge deviations from the norm, then there must be something wrong somewhere (either in the polling methodology, or the actual polls).
You say "when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating". I think what you wanted to say was "when the Republicans are cheating, they aren't complaining about cheating".
Read about the New Hampshire phone jamming scandal which resulted in convictions: :::link:::
Why did the RNC spend over $2.5Million defending their operative in this case?
Why was the NRCC harassing Democratic voters with robocalls :::link::: ?
I'm not saying Democrats are saints; but compared to the Republicans, they don't have to be. ;-)
PS: Watch this :::link:::
dcoffee - 11/08/06 20:47
Josh, you just contradicted yourself in the 3rd sentence. You said that democrats think that if they lose the "only possible" answer is that somebody cheated. That assumption about the Democrats is "cynical and unrealistic", not the assumption that people sometimes cheat in elections. Democrats know that they can run a bad campaign and lose fair and square, shit happens.
On the contrary, Ken Blackwell fucked the democrats in 2004 on purpose, and that type of partisan electioneering should not be permitted by any party or any citizen.
There were lots of problems with electronic voting machines on election day and before, on both sides, and everyone complained. And the fact is that some ballots in florida that were intended to be straight democrat registered as straight republican, that is a legitimate reason for concern, and those who are concerned about it do not disserve to be labeled as loony conspirists. All of this makes it imperative that machines have some way of verifying the vote.
It is also a legitimate concern that when republicans enacted HAVA they didn't care if the companies who owned the machines were the only ones who could see the votes after the election, that borders on atrocity.
My comment on exit polls was this. When they don't match the vote count Americans tend to discard the exit polls without much second thought. Don't do that. Statistics are by nature imperfect, but exit polls are one of the most reliable. if there is a 3-5% difference that election disserves a second look. We need safeguards on our voting, for the sake of all americans, not just democrats.
Josh, you just contradicted yourself in the 3rd sentence. You said that democrats think that if they lose the "only possible" answer is that somebody cheated. That assumption about the Democrats is "cynical and unrealistic", not the assumption that people sometimes cheat in elections. Democrats know that they can run a bad campaign and lose fair and square, shit happens.
On the contrary, Ken Blackwell fucked the democrats in 2004 on purpose, and that type of partisan electioneering should not be permitted by any party or any citizen.
There were lots of problems with electronic voting machines on election day and before, on both sides, and everyone complained. And the fact is that some ballots in florida that were intended to be straight democrat registered as straight republican, that is a legitimate reason for concern, and those who are concerned about it do not disserve to be labeled as loony conspirists. All of this makes it imperative that machines have some way of verifying the vote.
It is also a legitimate concern that when republicans enacted HAVA they didn't care if the companies who owned the machines were the only ones who could see the votes after the election, that borders on atrocity.
My comment on exit polls was this. When they don't match the vote count Americans tend to discard the exit polls without much second thought. Don't do that. Statistics are by nature imperfect, but exit polls are one of the most reliable. if there is a 3-5% difference that election disserves a second look. We need safeguards on our voting, for the sake of all americans, not just democrats.
joshua - 11/08/06 15:59
Dcoffee -
In general Democrats have been crying foul about elections ever since GWB won in 2000. While I don't doubt that some shady business goes on in elections, lets not pretend for a second that somehow this is a Republican only problem. The fact of the matter is that when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating; when they are losing, cheating must be the only possible method by which they lost. Its a cynical and unrealistic viewpoint, and in every single election since, Democrats have attempted to discredit America's democratic voting process. While I'm certain that some dirty biz was going down, its equally true that Democrats have been crying wolf about just as many contested votes. I'm sorry, but having to wait in a long line to vote does not constitute an impropriety.
By the way, JFK lost to Nixon in 1960 with 300,000 votes being the deciding factor. Historically Republicans have done far less complaining than Democrats have about losing elections - should Nixon have challenged the vote in 1960, or is it that because JFK won there couldn't have possibly been any um.. "indiscretions?"
I tend to agree that I do not trust paperless balloting - however, guess who was complaining yesterday when in some states the machines weren't working so they had to resort to paper balloting? I'll give you one guess.
About your statement about exit polls - this is the holy grail of Poly Sci. Not to burst YOUR bubble, but its about as accurate as predicting the weather. 2004 proved beyond argument that exit polls are not to be trusted - nobody outside of a PS department (or liberal kook land!) believes they are credible, which is why most networks declined relying solely on them when making calls last night. Trust the exit polls but don't trust the actual votes? That is absolutely inane.
As you say, "preserving our noble democratic system" is important. What I absolutely reject is the idea that somehow this means that Republicans are to blame for the absolute joke that our electoral process appears to be at times. Democrats are just as guilty and that is an absolute.
By the way, since you did mention that you believe that Republicans don't respect you or your vote (I should remind you that voting does not equal getting your way) - the sole reason why Democrats won the House yesterday was because a series of moderate and even conservative Democrats swept several elections in the midwest. When Speaker Pelosi starts towing the extreme far left line in the House, I have to ask - those moderate and conservative Democrat votes that sent their elected officials to office - are those people and their votes going to be disrespected?
Dcoffee -
In general Democrats have been crying foul about elections ever since GWB won in 2000. While I don't doubt that some shady business goes on in elections, lets not pretend for a second that somehow this is a Republican only problem. The fact of the matter is that when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating; when they are losing, cheating must be the only possible method by which they lost. Its a cynical and unrealistic viewpoint, and in every single election since, Democrats have attempted to discredit America's democratic voting process. While I'm certain that some dirty biz was going down, its equally true that Democrats have been crying wolf about just as many contested votes. I'm sorry, but having to wait in a long line to vote does not constitute an impropriety.
By the way, JFK lost to Nixon in 1960 with 300,000 votes being the deciding factor. Historically Republicans have done far less complaining than Democrats have about losing elections - should Nixon have challenged the vote in 1960, or is it that because JFK won there couldn't have possibly been any um.. "indiscretions?"
I tend to agree that I do not trust paperless balloting - however, guess who was complaining yesterday when in some states the machines weren't working so they had to resort to paper balloting? I'll give you one guess.
About your statement about exit polls - this is the holy grail of Poly Sci. Not to burst YOUR bubble, but its about as accurate as predicting the weather. 2004 proved beyond argument that exit polls are not to be trusted - nobody outside of a PS department (or liberal kook land!) believes they are credible, which is why most networks declined relying solely on them when making calls last night. Trust the exit polls but don't trust the actual votes? That is absolutely inane.
As you say, "preserving our noble democratic system" is important. What I absolutely reject is the idea that somehow this means that Republicans are to blame for the absolute joke that our electoral process appears to be at times. Democrats are just as guilty and that is an absolute.
By the way, since you did mention that you believe that Republicans don't respect you or your vote (I should remind you that voting does not equal getting your way) - the sole reason why Democrats won the House yesterday was because a series of moderate and even conservative Democrats swept several elections in the midwest. When Speaker Pelosi starts towing the extreme far left line in the House, I have to ask - those moderate and conservative Democrat votes that sent their elected officials to office - are those people and their votes going to be disrespected?
jason - 11/08/06 09:16
You know what, I'll be the first to say that I agree with you concerning harsh punishment going to people who do shady things concerning the vote. You're absolutely right about it, it has to be done this way or things will continue down the same path.
If there's one thing I know about you from your writing, it's that you are absolutely sincere in what you say. The problem I see is that you're basically the only one! Sketchy, criminal behavior is absolutely acceptable to most politicos when it benefits their political faction. When Democrats win elections by the skin of their teeth they do not flail their arms and yell about these things, nor are they demanding recounts for the sake of a valid vote. When a Democrat candidate in San Diego urges illegals to vote, and tells them how they can get away with it, people are utterly silent, and why? Anyone who is sincere, and who wants an honest vote would never give this person a chance. I don't like it any more than you do, but sketchy, illegal tactics will continue to be used by the political class until WE decide it's over, but I'm not holding my breath.
You have an iPod, right? I found some cool podcasts - Instapundit and Left, Right, and Center. Listening this week has opened my eyes to what exit polls really are, and I don't think you should trust them like you do based on what I've heard. They are NOT the same as a real vote count. At best, they are a snapshot based upon a very small sampling. They are also on occasion released before all polls are closed, and why do you think this is? In some countries this is a criminal offense! It is only one tool that we have, and it's far from perfect. I think our energy is best spent on perfecting methods of tabulating votes based on both paper and technology.
You know what, I'll be the first to say that I agree with you concerning harsh punishment going to people who do shady things concerning the vote. You're absolutely right about it, it has to be done this way or things will continue down the same path.
If there's one thing I know about you from your writing, it's that you are absolutely sincere in what you say. The problem I see is that you're basically the only one! Sketchy, criminal behavior is absolutely acceptable to most politicos when it benefits their political faction. When Democrats win elections by the skin of their teeth they do not flail their arms and yell about these things, nor are they demanding recounts for the sake of a valid vote. When a Democrat candidate in San Diego urges illegals to vote, and tells them how they can get away with it, people are utterly silent, and why? Anyone who is sincere, and who wants an honest vote would never give this person a chance. I don't like it any more than you do, but sketchy, illegal tactics will continue to be used by the political class until WE decide it's over, but I'm not holding my breath.
You have an iPod, right? I found some cool podcasts - Instapundit and Left, Right, and Center. Listening this week has opened my eyes to what exit polls really are, and I don't think you should trust them like you do based on what I've heard. They are NOT the same as a real vote count. At best, they are a snapshot based upon a very small sampling. They are also on occasion released before all polls are closed, and why do you think this is? In some countries this is a criminal offense! It is only one tool that we have, and it's far from perfect. I think our energy is best spent on perfecting methods of tabulating votes based on both paper and technology.
mrmike - 11/07/06 21:18
Not to mention, that the first official complaint was launched by the Pennsylvania GOP, their machines didn't work....poor bastards
Not to mention, that the first official complaint was launched by the Pennsylvania GOP, their machines didn't work....poor bastards
11/05/2006 23:45 #21756
Rushing into WarCategory: war
The Bush Administration really wanted to go to war with Iraq. This war is without a doubt, a war of choice, not necessity. All the Bushistas wanted to "Get Saddam". And as soon as 9/11 happened all the crazy geo political neo-cons were trying to force the conversation over to Iraq. Invading and occupying Iraq was key the the Project for the New America Century, and all the crazies from that organization invaded the whitehouse along with Bush.
Anyway, in case you needed more proof, here's another ex-CIA analyst who retired after 25 years. He's an insider who worked directly with Iraq during the lead up to the War. He just published a new book "On the Brink: An Insider's Account of How the White House Compromised American Intelligence" You can read a few of its key points here
You can also watch a movie from 2004 about this topic, it's a good primer for everyone. And you can watch it in full here
Anyway, in case you needed more proof, here's another ex-CIA analyst who retired after 25 years. He's an insider who worked directly with Iraq during the lead up to the War. He just published a new book "On the Brink: An Insider's Account of How the White House Compromised American Intelligence" You can read a few of its key points here
You can also watch a movie from 2004 about this topic, it's a good primer for everyone. And you can watch it in full here
11/03/2006 12:53 #21755
Blatant CorruptionCategory: politics
Corruption. It's hard to believe it has gotten this bad.
The lone office in Iraq keeping track of government waste bribery and corruption. Closed. Just like that. Republican leaders decided that they didn't want a lawyer watching over their business.
Congress Tells Auditor in Iraq to Close Office
The problem is not waste, corruption, fraud, bribery and everything else going on in the corporate paradise that is Iraq. No, the problem is that You, me and the American Media find out about it. The problem is that some corrupt bastards who are profiting off of the blood of our soldiers and the Iraqi people, have gone to jail. The problem is that Americans who know the truth are getting pissed off. The solution, Hide the truth better.
First stop reporting Casualty figures to the UN:
Then Stop investigating corruption in Iraq
BRILLIANT!! Hitler and Goebbels would be proud.
Thugs are ruling this country. They don't care about the Troops, the Taxpayers, and they certainly don't give a damn about that once honorable country called America. They only care about their own power, and they will do absolutely anything to preserve that power, anything.
The US public must remain in ignorance of the facts. Reality is a bad thing. The war in Iraq is going well, and Rumsfeld is doing a Heckuva job.
Why do Bush's statements always directly contradict the classified reports?
Military Charts Movement of Conflict in Iraq Toward Chaos:
Shoot the Messenger:
And Get More PR and Propaganda Quick!!
Analysis from NY Times
The Great Divider:
Our Country has been taken over by Liars, Thugs, and dangerous megalomaniacs.
The lone office in Iraq keeping track of government waste bribery and corruption. Closed. Just like that. Republican leaders decided that they didn't want a lawyer watching over their business.
Congress Tells Auditor in Iraq to Close Office
The problem is not waste, corruption, fraud, bribery and everything else going on in the corporate paradise that is Iraq. No, the problem is that You, me and the American Media find out about it. The problem is that some corrupt bastards who are profiting off of the blood of our soldiers and the Iraqi people, have gone to jail. The problem is that Americans who know the truth are getting pissed off. The solution, Hide the truth better.
First stop reporting Casualty figures to the UN:
Then Stop investigating corruption in Iraq
BRILLIANT!! Hitler and Goebbels would be proud.
Thugs are ruling this country. They don't care about the Troops, the Taxpayers, and they certainly don't give a damn about that once honorable country called America. They only care about their own power, and they will do absolutely anything to preserve that power, anything.
The US public must remain in ignorance of the facts. Reality is a bad thing. The war in Iraq is going well, and Rumsfeld is doing a Heckuva job.
Why do Bush's statements always directly contradict the classified reports?
Military Charts Movement of Conflict in Iraq Toward Chaos:
Shoot the Messenger:
And Get More PR and Propaganda Quick!!
Analysis from NY Times
The Great Divider:
Our Country has been taken over by Liars, Thugs, and dangerous megalomaniacs.
The Real problem with Iraq is that they didn't want to be free. No one ever tried to rise up agasnt Saddam his army being so powerfull is not the only reason. Was he evil yes but, if there was any killing him and his army where the only ones to do it. You have 3 gruops of people who don't like each other and as long as they live in the same country there will always be war. Sadam didn't let them get away with that they where one Iraq. Did he let terrorist stay there, yeah sure but they knew not to fuck with him and his country. When we got to iraq we disbandend therer amy that was a mistake. The only way there will be peace in Iraq is if the US pulls out and the country is split into 3 seperate countries and each group gets there own part based on where they live, otherwise this violance will never end.