This is for (e:joshua)#207 and anyone else who believes we don't need to verify that votes have been correctly counted in America.
Do you doubt that politicians cheat in elections? You think nobody in America has ever intentionally cheated voters? Rigged voting counts, under-supplied voting machines in districts not favorable to them, jammed phone lines of the opposition party, called voters on the other side with misleading information to frustrate them and prevent them from voting?
Sorry to burst your bubble but all of these things happened in 2004, and in past elections. In 2004 some people went to jail for it. And guess what, most of the time the cheating was on the Republican side. I'm not saying nobody else has ever cheated, but the Republicans insult my intelligence on a daily basis, and I don't trust that they will respect me or my vote. Nor would I demand any fewer protections from Democratic or any type of cheating.
And I certainly don't trust paperless electronic voting machines. As far as I'm concerned that's like "faith based voting". No government Ever deserves that leisure. Honest, verifiable, and open elections, that's the basis of democracy. That's the principle of America, the idea of checks and balances, and the idea of a government ruled by the people. If the Executive or Legislative branch cheats, the judicial branch is there to enforce the rules, and make sure the interests of the people prevail. What better example than making sure votes are counted. This is an imposable task if the only record of the vote is a number on a computer screen, we all know how easy that is to manipulate.
Foul play happens, and we need to safeguard against it right away, or else we will be throwing away the dream of America, and pissing on the graves of our founding fathers and all the men and women who have died to preserve our noble democratic system.
I you don't want the election to drag on for days, get rid of Faith based Voting, and have stricter penalties for misleading or lying advertisements, voter intimidation, fake phone calls, and voter help line jamming.
And by the way, if the exit polls don't match the vote count, trust the exit polls, the vote count is wrong. Don't bullshit me, I'm a Political Science major, and half of that field is statistics. Exit polls are the one true check against corrupt vote counts, even in this country. We scrutinize power to make sure it is not abused, that's America. Don't stop now, or we'll lose everything.
Dcoffee's Journal
My Podcast Link
11/07/2006 21:07 #21757
To Josh, Faith Based VotingCategory: elections
11/05/2006 23:45 #21756
Rushing into WarCategory: war
The Bush Administration really wanted to go to war with Iraq. This war is without a doubt, a war of choice, not necessity. All the Bushistas wanted to "Get Saddam". And as soon as 9/11 happened all the crazy geo political neo-cons were trying to force the conversation over to Iraq. Invading and occupying Iraq was key the the Project for the New America Century, and all the crazies from that organization invaded the whitehouse along with Bush.
Anyway, in case you needed more proof, here's another ex-CIA analyst who retired after 25 years. He's an insider who worked directly with Iraq during the lead up to the War. He just published a new book "On the Brink: An Insider's Account of How the White House Compromised American Intelligence" You can read a few of its key points here
You can also watch a movie from 2004 about this topic, it's a good primer for everyone. And you can watch it in full here
Anyway, in case you needed more proof, here's another ex-CIA analyst who retired after 25 years. He's an insider who worked directly with Iraq during the lead up to the War. He just published a new book "On the Brink: An Insider's Account of How the White House Compromised American Intelligence" You can read a few of its key points here
You can also watch a movie from 2004 about this topic, it's a good primer for everyone. And you can watch it in full here
11/03/2006 12:53 #21755
Blatant CorruptionCategory: politics
Corruption. It's hard to believe it has gotten this bad.
The lone office in Iraq keeping track of government waste bribery and corruption. Closed. Just like that. Republican leaders decided that they didn't want a lawyer watching over their business.
Congress Tells Auditor in Iraq to Close Office
The problem is not waste, corruption, fraud, bribery and everything else going on in the corporate paradise that is Iraq. No, the problem is that You, me and the American Media find out about it. The problem is that some corrupt bastards who are profiting off of the blood of our soldiers and the Iraqi people, have gone to jail. The problem is that Americans who know the truth are getting pissed off. The solution, Hide the truth better.
First stop reporting Casualty figures to the UN:
Then Stop investigating corruption in Iraq
BRILLIANT!! Hitler and Goebbels would be proud.
Thugs are ruling this country. They don't care about the Troops, the Taxpayers, and they certainly don't give a damn about that once honorable country called America. They only care about their own power, and they will do absolutely anything to preserve that power, anything.
The US public must remain in ignorance of the facts. Reality is a bad thing. The war in Iraq is going well, and Rumsfeld is doing a Heckuva job.
Why do Bush's statements always directly contradict the classified reports?
Military Charts Movement of Conflict in Iraq Toward Chaos:
Shoot the Messenger:
And Get More PR and Propaganda Quick!!
Analysis from NY Times
The Great Divider:
Our Country has been taken over by Liars, Thugs, and dangerous megalomaniacs.
The lone office in Iraq keeping track of government waste bribery and corruption. Closed. Just like that. Republican leaders decided that they didn't want a lawyer watching over their business.
Congress Tells Auditor in Iraq to Close Office
The problem is not waste, corruption, fraud, bribery and everything else going on in the corporate paradise that is Iraq. No, the problem is that You, me and the American Media find out about it. The problem is that some corrupt bastards who are profiting off of the blood of our soldiers and the Iraqi people, have gone to jail. The problem is that Americans who know the truth are getting pissed off. The solution, Hide the truth better.
First stop reporting Casualty figures to the UN:
Then Stop investigating corruption in Iraq
BRILLIANT!! Hitler and Goebbels would be proud.
Thugs are ruling this country. They don't care about the Troops, the Taxpayers, and they certainly don't give a damn about that once honorable country called America. They only care about their own power, and they will do absolutely anything to preserve that power, anything.
The US public must remain in ignorance of the facts. Reality is a bad thing. The war in Iraq is going well, and Rumsfeld is doing a Heckuva job.
Why do Bush's statements always directly contradict the classified reports?
Military Charts Movement of Conflict in Iraq Toward Chaos:
Shoot the Messenger:
And Get More PR and Propaganda Quick!!
Analysis from NY Times
The Great Divider:
Our Country has been taken over by Liars, Thugs, and dangerous megalomaniacs.
10/23/2006 10:16 #21754
From a soldierCategory: war
This is the most powerful condemnation of Americas post 9/11 fall from grace that I have read in a long time, and I read a lot. It is written by a soldier, Pat Tillman's brother, Kevin Tillman. Pat was killed in Afghanistan in 2004.
America's shame should be glaringly obvious to all of us. If you are a patriot, you should have your fist in the air demanding a regeme change in this country. I'll let Kevin Tillman explain why...
After Pat's Birthday
Posted on Oct 19, 2006
By Kevin Tillman
It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice... until we got out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.
Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the military.
Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.
Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.
Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.
Somehow torture is tolerated.
Somehow lying is tolerated.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday.
Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman
America's shame should be glaringly obvious to all of us. If you are a patriot, you should have your fist in the air demanding a regeme change in this country. I'll let Kevin Tillman explain why...
After Pat's Birthday
Posted on Oct 19, 2006
By Kevin Tillman
It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice... until we got out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.
Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the military.
Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.
Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.
Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.
Somehow torture is tolerated.
Somehow lying is tolerated.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday.
Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman
jason - 10/24/06 08:23
Pat Tillman wasn't a big fan of the war either, if I'm to believe a lengthy article written in Sports Illustrated recently. "This war is so fucking illegal."
Pat Tillman wasn't a big fan of the war either, if I'm to believe a lengthy article written in Sports Illustrated recently. "This war is so fucking illegal."
10/18/2006 19:28 #21753
Tyranny in America.Category: politics
Today Bush signed a bill that effectively abolishes the most basic legal right in civilized society.
Back in the 11th century civilized peoples realized that there was a need to limit the power of the king. One of the most basic limits to this power, was the right to know why you are in jail, and to challenge that detention in court.
The power of Kings, and Presidents must be limited, because they will throw you in jail just because they do not like you. Annoying the president is not a crime, but if you are never allowed to have a trial, you can rot in jail for the rest of your life, for nothing.
Does it get any more basic than that? I don't think so.
The law now says "Enemy Combatants" can be locked up without charge, and they can be condemned to death without knowing why they are in jail or what evidence there is against them.
So who is an enemy combatant? Anyone. No Bullshit.
A "Combatant Status Review Tribunal" can declare anyone an enemy combatant, citizen or not. Forgive me if I don't trust an appointed tribunal with no legal mandate, to decide who can be stripped of all their rights and held indefinitely without charge. Every American should be in the streets demanding that the president stop pissing on the document he swore to protect. THE CONSTITUTION!!
The beauty of America is that we are ruled by a set of laws, not by the whims and suspicions of tyrants. Had we been living by that standard and the rest of the constitution, we would have never gotten to this point.
What can I say. This is the exact opposite of America. Bush is an Outlaw. We must impeach him before any more damage is done to this country. This is an abomination.
90% of those in Guantanamo have been held without charge for over 4 years. Many, if not the Majority of them are innocent. People were turned over to the US by Afghan warloards just so they could get the $5,000 reward.
By the way, there is something inherently wrong with declaring somebody an "Enemy" BEFORE having a trial.
More Reading:
Video: Olbermann; The Day Habeas Corpus Died:
The President Gets His Wish: He's the Dictator:
Shame on Us All:
NY Times, Rushing Off a Cliff:
Back in the 11th century civilized peoples realized that there was a need to limit the power of the king. One of the most basic limits to this power, was the right to know why you are in jail, and to challenge that detention in court.
The power of Kings, and Presidents must be limited, because they will throw you in jail just because they do not like you. Annoying the president is not a crime, but if you are never allowed to have a trial, you can rot in jail for the rest of your life, for nothing.
Does it get any more basic than that? I don't think so.
The law now says "Enemy Combatants" can be locked up without charge, and they can be condemned to death without knowing why they are in jail or what evidence there is against them.
So who is an enemy combatant? Anyone. No Bullshit.
A "Combatant Status Review Tribunal" can declare anyone an enemy combatant, citizen or not. Forgive me if I don't trust an appointed tribunal with no legal mandate, to decide who can be stripped of all their rights and held indefinitely without charge. Every American should be in the streets demanding that the president stop pissing on the document he swore to protect. THE CONSTITUTION!!
The beauty of America is that we are ruled by a set of laws, not by the whims and suspicions of tyrants. Had we been living by that standard and the rest of the constitution, we would have never gotten to this point.
What can I say. This is the exact opposite of America. Bush is an Outlaw. We must impeach him before any more damage is done to this country. This is an abomination.
90% of those in Guantanamo have been held without charge for over 4 years. Many, if not the Majority of them are innocent. People were turned over to the US by Afghan warloards just so they could get the $5,000 reward.
By the way, there is something inherently wrong with declaring somebody an "Enemy" BEFORE having a trial.
More Reading:
Video: Olbermann; The Day Habeas Corpus Died:
The President Gets His Wish: He's the Dictator:
Shame on Us All:
NY Times, Rushing Off a Cliff:
libertad - 10/18/06 22:49
Maher Arar is a good example of why we need to uphold the constitution. A Canadian (Syrian national) captured by US, sent to Syria to be tortured, has NO links to terrorism. I am NOT proud to be an Amerian. This is a disgrace. Why some people insist that we be proud i just don't know. I'm glad I have the right to say this...for now!
Maher Arar is a good example of why we need to uphold the constitution. A Canadian (Syrian national) captured by US, sent to Syria to be tortured, has NO links to terrorism. I am NOT proud to be an Amerian. This is a disgrace. Why some people insist that we be proud i just don't know. I'm glad I have the right to say this...for now!
(e:Joshua), sampling is a basic part of our daily lives. That computer you're typing on? Its components weren't tested; only a sample of the batches were tested. The reason people cried foul about the discrepancy between exit polls and the real results is because HISTORICALLY exit polls have not been far from the final results. If suddenly you start seeing huge deviations from the norm, then there must be something wrong somewhere (either in the polling methodology, or the actual polls).
You say "when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating". I think what you wanted to say was "when the Republicans are cheating, they aren't complaining about cheating".
Read about the New Hampshire phone jamming scandal which resulted in convictions: :::link:::
Why did the RNC spend over $2.5Million defending their operative in this case?
Why was the NRCC harassing Democratic voters with robocalls :::link::: ?
I'm not saying Democrats are saints; but compared to the Republicans, they don't have to be. ;-)
PS: Watch this :::link:::
Josh, you just contradicted yourself in the 3rd sentence. You said that democrats think that if they lose the "only possible" answer is that somebody cheated. That assumption about the Democrats is "cynical and unrealistic", not the assumption that people sometimes cheat in elections. Democrats know that they can run a bad campaign and lose fair and square, shit happens.
On the contrary, Ken Blackwell fucked the democrats in 2004 on purpose, and that type of partisan electioneering should not be permitted by any party or any citizen.
There were lots of problems with electronic voting machines on election day and before, on both sides, and everyone complained. And the fact is that some ballots in florida that were intended to be straight democrat registered as straight republican, that is a legitimate reason for concern, and those who are concerned about it do not disserve to be labeled as loony conspirists. All of this makes it imperative that machines have some way of verifying the vote.
It is also a legitimate concern that when republicans enacted HAVA they didn't care if the companies who owned the machines were the only ones who could see the votes after the election, that borders on atrocity.
My comment on exit polls was this. When they don't match the vote count Americans tend to discard the exit polls without much second thought. Don't do that. Statistics are by nature imperfect, but exit polls are one of the most reliable. if there is a 3-5% difference that election disserves a second look. We need safeguards on our voting, for the sake of all americans, not just democrats.
Dcoffee -
In general Democrats have been crying foul about elections ever since GWB won in 2000. While I don't doubt that some shady business goes on in elections, lets not pretend for a second that somehow this is a Republican only problem. The fact of the matter is that when Democrats are winning, they aren't complaining about cheating; when they are losing, cheating must be the only possible method by which they lost. Its a cynical and unrealistic viewpoint, and in every single election since, Democrats have attempted to discredit America's democratic voting process. While I'm certain that some dirty biz was going down, its equally true that Democrats have been crying wolf about just as many contested votes. I'm sorry, but having to wait in a long line to vote does not constitute an impropriety.
By the way, JFK lost to Nixon in 1960 with 300,000 votes being the deciding factor. Historically Republicans have done far less complaining than Democrats have about losing elections - should Nixon have challenged the vote in 1960, or is it that because JFK won there couldn't have possibly been any um.. "indiscretions?"
I tend to agree that I do not trust paperless balloting - however, guess who was complaining yesterday when in some states the machines weren't working so they had to resort to paper balloting? I'll give you one guess.
About your statement about exit polls - this is the holy grail of Poly Sci. Not to burst YOUR bubble, but its about as accurate as predicting the weather. 2004 proved beyond argument that exit polls are not to be trusted - nobody outside of a PS department (or liberal kook land!) believes they are credible, which is why most networks declined relying solely on them when making calls last night. Trust the exit polls but don't trust the actual votes? That is absolutely inane.
As you say, "preserving our noble democratic system" is important. What I absolutely reject is the idea that somehow this means that Republicans are to blame for the absolute joke that our electoral process appears to be at times. Democrats are just as guilty and that is an absolute.
By the way, since you did mention that you believe that Republicans don't respect you or your vote (I should remind you that voting does not equal getting your way) - the sole reason why Democrats won the House yesterday was because a series of moderate and even conservative Democrats swept several elections in the midwest. When Speaker Pelosi starts towing the extreme far left line in the House, I have to ask - those moderate and conservative Democrat votes that sent their elected officials to office - are those people and their votes going to be disrespected?
You know what, I'll be the first to say that I agree with you concerning harsh punishment going to people who do shady things concerning the vote. You're absolutely right about it, it has to be done this way or things will continue down the same path.
If there's one thing I know about you from your writing, it's that you are absolutely sincere in what you say. The problem I see is that you're basically the only one! Sketchy, criminal behavior is absolutely acceptable to most politicos when it benefits their political faction. When Democrats win elections by the skin of their teeth they do not flail their arms and yell about these things, nor are they demanding recounts for the sake of a valid vote. When a Democrat candidate in San Diego urges illegals to vote, and tells them how they can get away with it, people are utterly silent, and why? Anyone who is sincere, and who wants an honest vote would never give this person a chance. I don't like it any more than you do, but sketchy, illegal tactics will continue to be used by the political class until WE decide it's over, but I'm not holding my breath.
You have an iPod, right? I found some cool podcasts - Instapundit and Left, Right, and Center. Listening this week has opened my eyes to what exit polls really are, and I don't think you should trust them like you do based on what I've heard. They are NOT the same as a real vote count. At best, they are a snapshot based upon a very small sampling. They are also on occasion released before all polls are closed, and why do you think this is? In some countries this is a criminal offense! It is only one tool that we have, and it's far from perfect. I think our energy is best spent on perfecting methods of tabulating votes based on both paper and technology.
Not to mention, that the first official complaint was launched by the Pennsylvania GOP, their machines didn't work....poor bastards